ENGLAND
15. Mike Brown: 5.5
A couple of nice touches to beat the first man but is still some way short of last season’s form. ‘Credit in the bank’ must be starting to run out.
14. Anthony Watson: 5
It was not a game for the wingers and Watson struggled to get himself involved. Dropped one clanger from a high ball.
13. Brad Barritt: 6
More of the same from Barritt – solid but unspectacular. Finished England’s last try but it was a simple run-in. Can’t remember the last he was rated higher than a seven.
12. Kyle Eastmond: 6
An improvement on last week, with his discipline noticeably better. Still struggled to influence England’s woefully inept attacking game, however.
11. Jonny May: 5
It was easy to forget he was on the pitch at times. Not able to recreate the magic of last weekend against a stubborn South African defence.
10. Owen Farrell: 3.5
Injured or otherwise this was pretty dire from Farrell. Unable to spark anything in attack and tactical kicking that lacked (the right) direction.
9. Danny Care: 4
Better than Farrell for most of the game but must lose a whole point for the most telegraphed pass for some time that gifted Serfontein a try that sent South Africa into what proved to be an unassailable lead.
1. Joe Marler: 6.5
A decent shift in the scrum, where he had Jannie du Plessis contorted on a couple of occasions. Unable to make any bursts will ball in hand.
2. Dylan Hartley: 6
The yellow card might have been harsh, but why take the risk? It was a silly penalty at the very least. His score would have been much higher otherwise and, to his credit, the line-out went very well against the sternest of opposition.
3. Dave Wilson: 7
Had ‘the beast’ in all sorts of trouble at scrum time. Entirely anonymous with ball in hand, but made all of his tackles – all in all, one of England’s few positive performances.
4. Dave Attwood: 6
A tough one. Was mostly good, and one of the few ball carriers who matched South Africa’s physicality, but the butchering of that two on one in the first half was absolutely shocking. Will be cringing at the replays today.
5. Courtney Lawes: 5.5
Ran the lineout with aplomb but was guilty of giving away too many penalties. Like too many of his compatriots, again, he had no influence with ball in hand.
6. Tom Wood: 6
A bit better with ball in hand but when you put him next to Burger or Kaino he is never going to come out on top in those stakes. Tackled his heart out but is it time England ask for more from their blindside?
7. Chris Robshaw: 6
Full marks for effort as always but on this occasion he was outplayed by opposite man Coetzee (regardless of number on back, the designated breakdown man) at the contact area.
8. Billy Vunipola: 5
Managed to break a few tackles but not able to convert them into anything meaningful. Looks likely to lose his place for the next couple of games.
Replacements: 7
Ben Morgan was a revelation when he came on and looks set to start for the rest of the autumn. Ben Youngs and George Ford significantly upped the tempo when they entered the fray so again the question has to be asked, why were they not brought on sooner? Especially when Farrell and Care looked out of sorts and, in the former’s case, injured. Kieron Brookes again managed to enhance his reputation despite only being on the pitch for eight minutes.
SOUTH AFRICA
15. Willie le Roux: 7.5
Kept reasonable quiet for most of the game but how good was his assist for Reinach’s try? Had no right to turn a two on two into a simple run-in for the scrum-half, but he’s so nippy that’s exactly what he did.
14. JP Pietersen: 5
Just as anonymous as England’s wingers, and somehow managed to miss four tackles while only completing two.
13. Jan Serfontein: 6.5
Read Care’s pass to sprint 60 metres for a try but really it was so telegraphed how could he have missed it? That intervention aside you forgot he was on the pitch.
12. Jean de Villiers: 5.5
Didn’t make a single pass all game, which tells you everything you need to know about what type of game the Boks were playing, and why the wingers were so anonymous. Missed a few tackles and threw in a bizarre decision to kick for the corner late on.
11. Bryan Habana: 5.5
Unfairly adjudged to have been in touch in the build-up to England’s second try – it was actually a brilliant piece of skill. Very quiet other than that.
10. Pat Lambie: 7.5
Lambie touched the ball just 10 times in 80 minutes on Saturday (10 times! The side’s main playmaker!) but every time he did, it was well-executed. The chip through for le Roux was a thing of beauty and the drop-goal, which turned out to be crucial, was cooly converted.
9. Cobus Reinach: 8
Marvellous work rate to support le Roux and canter in for his first Bok try. Kicked well and sniped at the appropriate moments. When du Preez and Pienaar return, Meyer will have a proper headache.
1. Tendai Mtawarira: 5.5
Is the beast living off his reputation from a few years ago? Made no impact with ball in hand and was shunted around by Wilson at the scrums.
2. Adriaan Strauss: 6
Soild if unspectacular from Strauss. Lineout throwing was flawless and he offered himself as a ball carrier plenty, but never really made any meaningful ground.
3. Jannie du Plessis: 6
Was similarly troubled at the scrums but did put in a huge shift in defence, finishing with 10 tackles before limping off on 64 minutes. Also the beneficiary of the pack’s fine mauling work.
4. Eben Etzebeth: 7
Always to be found at the heart of the Springboks’ ruthlessly powerful rolling mauls. Do not underestimate Etzebeth’s presence there.
5. Victor Matfield: 6.5
Yellow card was more a reflection of his side’s continued indiscipline. Oversaw a faultless lineout performance once again.
6. Marcell Coetzee: 8
Brilliant stuff from Coetzee who completely dominated the breakdown in the first half. Influence waned in the second forty, but along with Burger he was a paragon of physicality.
7. Schalk Burger: 8
Another beneficiary of the pack’s good work at the maul, it was Burger’s snarling, aggressively physical presence in all corners of the pitch that caught the eye most.
8. Duane Vermeulen: 6.5
Not the dominating performance he is capable of as he ended up going backwards more often than forwards when carrying the ball, but still worked hard in defence. Ultimately outshone by back-row colleagues.
Replacements: 6.5
All of South Africa’s replacements were in the pack and while none especially stood out, they all continued the (boring by now) theme of relentless physicality.
By Jamie Hosie
Follow Jamie on Twitter: @jhosie43
Photo by: Patrick Khachfe / Onside Images
As you know by now, we are hilarious, and you should be following us on Facebook and Twitter. 
Why is that when ever Steve Walsh refs a game it is his performance that that gets talked about most. Willie le Roux should have been yellowed card regardless of the fact that he apologized straight away. Not on the park, no late try to win the game. It has so far been the most consistent part of the autumn internationals, poor referring influencing results of matches.
Le Roux’s late try was disallowed – the game was already won by that point as it was the last play anyway.
Not so sure if I totally agree with the SA replacements comment; “they all continued the (boring by now) theme of relentless physicality.” Yes, if England won, it would have been a fair comment indeed…
Willie also didn’t just apologize he put the player down lightly, yes penalty, but not dangerous. So that was the correct decision by the ref no to card the player.
I feel the ratings are a tad high for SA. In truth both sides were poor, but no one can “out poor” England at the moment. Lambie deserves top marks for the chip that led to the try and the drop goal, great game management.
Coach rating? Lancaster was poor yet again. Giving 15 minutes to Ford to force the game was as much of a hospital pass to the numerous ones Farrell shovelled out during the match. Should have been on at half time. That performance was as bad as I’ve seen.
Why should Le Roux have been carded? Not the tackle in the air I hope, he lowered Brown down carefully onto his feet. Penalty absolutely, yellow, absolutely not.
Amazing game, we missed a single tackle in over 100, our forwards made far more meters, beat more defenders (obviously) and we made more breaks. Dominated territory and possession in the first half, and went into the sheds 0-10.
If Farrell comes back in for Aus it’ll be a travesty, regardless of how Ford goes against Samoa.
Jamie did you really think that Billy V was worse than Wood or Robshaw? Here are some stats (accurate or not I don’t know) from ESPN.
Vunipola made 35 metres from 10 runs with ball in hand, beat 3 defenders, won 3 turnovers and made 7 tackles. Wood made 32 metres from 8 runs, beat NO defenders, won NO turnovers and made 12 tackles. Robshaw made 12 metres from 7 runs (shocking!!), beat NO defenders, won NO turnovers, but did make 13 tackles. Morgan made 27 metres from 7 runs, made 1 clean break, beat 1 defender, won 1 turnover and made 7 tackles.
As you implied I think we should expect more from our blindside, and for our openside to win NO turnovers is shocking. To replace Billy V because the two men in front of him are not pulling their weight is harsh. Stick him at 6, and put Morgan at 8. Morgan did make an impact, but so would Billy V if he only came on in the second half. But after doing most of the donkey work for the back row in the first half, he was probably knackered.
Farrell looked crocked from when he kicked off. Seemed to do a funny little limp after kicking the ball to start the game. Him and Care look slow and off the pace. But to me Youngs doesn’t seem much better. His passing is still poor, but he did up the pace a little. I would definitely start with Ford in the next game, and I would start Watson at 15, with Yarde on the wing. Give Brown a rest, and let’s see what Watson can do from deep.
Wood made almost all of those from one break in the second half. I would much rather my back row made consistent yards throughout the game. 2 games in a row where Wood and Robshaw have not carried effectively, and have not competed effectively over the ball at the breakdown.
Vunipola can absolutely go for 80 when playing for Saracens, in fact in their recent Euro games, he really came into his own in the final 20. This is because there are other players around him making yards with the ball.
Although they were against poor opposition, Johnson, Haskell and Hughes were immense for Wasps. Would like to see Vunipola, Haskell and Morgan start the Samoa game, with Kvesic on the bench to come on for Billy.
That is the big difference isn’t it. The fact that when he plays for Sarries the likes of Brown Wray, Fraser etc etc are all making yards with the ball. The tackles still get made, the turnovers still won, but he is not relied on to do all the leg work.
Isn’t the turnover stat, turnovers lost? So Vunipola actually lost the ball three times, whilst Robshaw and Wood looked after the ball the whole game, not just one half.
Plus I think you’ve misread the stats. Wood made one of England’s most promising breaks. So think that should be at least 1 break, and prob a defender or two beaten.
In any case, you can’t compare the back rowers by matching up the stats as they are tasked with different roles and different aspects are more important for each player.
Vunipola is on as a ball carrier, but made little ground and lost the ball too many times. Didn’t do his job, so deserves a worse rating.
Bit harsh on Mike Brown. Don’t remember him missing a high ball and more often than not made good yards after the catch. Surprised he’s not at least level with Barritt & Eastmond, personally think he was more influential than both of them.
Farrell was dire, deserves a low score. Ford attacked the game line much more effectively, although when he cam on, chasing the game, he had no option but to do that. But is he genuine competition for Farrell at fly half? Hard to see him being trusted with the starting jersey if Farrell doesn’t put in a redeeming performance.
Agree totally re Brown
I thought by and large Walsh had a decent game. The one exception being Hartley’s yellow card. Yes, Hartley did run over him, but I submit what other choice did he have? SA player was on the floor, making absolutely no effort to move, and if you watch the replay he is actually hanging onto the maul in an attempt to either slow or collapse it. Hartley acknowledged the player was on the floor and in the way (by virtue of the slapping of the players arm/leg (I forget which) to draw the attention of the officials, linesman or otherwise), the maul was moving forwards…what was he to do, break off from the back of the maul, walk around the outside of the player causing the obstruction and rejoin it (resulting in a penalty against England)? The SA player’s actions were entirely cynical and went unpunished. Walsh had already acknowledge Hartley had been a bit liberal with the boot and warned him, that was enough.
Totally agree. If you give Hartley a yellow then Vermeulen (or Burger, not sure) should have a yellow for collapsing the maul. Why should Hartley detach from a maul just to save a player committing foud play from getting trodden on. It was never a stamp.
Farrell was dire – but I’m just not convinced with Ford at all. Yes he played flatter but he made some pretty big errors. His kick straight out on the full came at a crucial time and was awful. He really doesn’t fill me with confidence. I’d definitely play him against Samoa and probably Australia, mainly because of a lack of options. Just wish Cipriani was in the squad.
Definitely want to see Haskell come in for Wood. Youngs in for Care.
Feel for Hartley – it was never a yellow. In truth, England should have already had a penalty from the SA player (can’t recall who it was now) lying down in the middle of a maul, also attempting to pull on an England players leg as the maul drove forward. How was that missed by Hartleys rucking exploits noticed.
If I’m going to draw positives it’s that a few years ago if England were off form against SA and NZ we had 40-50 points stuck on us. We lost by 3 both times.
Would mix it up for Samoa. Mullan, Webber, Brookes, Lawes, Kruis, Vunipola, Haskell, Morgan, Youngs, Ford, May, Eastmond, Burrell, Roko/Yarde, Watson.
Bench of Marler, Hartley, Wilson, Attwood, Kvesic, Dickson, Joseph, Goode (only to be brought on if Ford has nightmare with boot/someone gets injured)
I think Willie le Roux should come up as an impact player and get someone more solid at the back yes willie creates try but makes to much crucial faults!
Before worrying about the players Lancaster needs to look at his own performance including selection + all the other coaches except Rowntree-our only international class coach.To say we are on the right path is laughable after all theTwickenham fortress stuff he came up with.He needs to critically reexamine what he needs to change in his approach
England were shockingly poor, just no cohesion or visible plan in attack, at times it seemed to be just shovel it to a forward and get tackled having made no metres.
Farrell needs to go, he was awful, time to see what George Ford can do for a whole game and not just an off the bench cameo. Morgan should definitely start, with Vunipola possibly moving to 6 or Haskell coming in for Wood, that should give us some much needed ball carrying ability in our forwards.
I’d also consider bringing in Jonathon Joseph for Barritt at 13 just to see what what the Bath 10,12,13 combo can do on the international stage.
At the moment, I think who is in the back three is irrelevant considering the ball doesn’t even get to them. I’d leave that area as is for now, but one thing that really needs work is Mike Brown joining the line in attack. Foden used to be great at this for England and it adds a bit more uncertainty for the defence, Brown however always seems to be on the end of the line which is much easier to defend.
Perhaps a little harsh to say Tom Wood is never going to match up to players like Burger or Kaino? Wasn’t he man of the match when England walloped the ABs back in 2012? He’s not on form at the moment but at his best he is exactly the kind of blindside that England need.
I’m mostly worried about the scrum halves to be honest – neither Youngs nor Care have played well for England recently, and both have a pretty poor passing game and a tendency to crab from the breakdown before they distribute, which telegraphs their intentions to the onrushing back rows.
I’d bring in Wigglesworth if you want the best kicking 9 in England (who also has decent service), or Lee Dickson if you want the passing 9 in England (although he’s not been playing brilliantly for Saints lately).
Lots of points above. To discuss some of them
1. Backs can’t off-load if there’s no one to off-load to. Brown can’t pass if there’s no one to pass to. Almost every break or half-break saw an England player on their own who was then isolated and often turned over.
2. England’s forwards did not hit the rucks hard enough or quickly enough. See point 1 – player gets isolated, two or three SA forwards clamp down over the ball. In that situation you cannot expect Robshaw or Wood on their own to clear out the defenders, the rest of the pack needs to be clearing out the ruck (and past the ruck and on both sides of the ruck, a la New Zealand)
3. Vunipola was awful. 3 maybe 4 knock ons? One-dimensional. Largely at fault for the try after the break when rather than trust Brown to make the tackle on le Roux, he went for him as well, leaving Reinach with a clear run in. Morgan showed what was missing and was great – not just in the open but in his tackling as well. He seemed to be everywhere. If we’re going to have one of these two on the bench, it should be BV
4. Walsh had a reasonable game and made two very good decisions with Le Roux and Hartley. We’ve seen red and yellow cards absurdly given for less that Le Roux did, but in no way was it dangerous or a card. Hartley is an idiot. He drew attention to Vermuelen and it may well have been a penalty to England if Hartley hadn’t clearly raised his leg and bought it down with more force than he would normally – I don’t see that Walsh had a choice. However, his interpretation of what consists of ‘supporting your own weight’ at the breakdown was interesting, he allowed far too much playing of the ball from players who were clearly off their feet
5. Barritt is possibly the slowest 13 in the history of the international game.
6. I thought Watson could play fullback and wing? If so, why can’t he catch a high ball?
7. Farrell is just awful at the moment.
8. Care isn’t much better
9. I don’t hold out much hope for Youngs either
My team for Samoa -bearing in mind that I can never remember who SL is allowed / not allowed to pick
1. Matt Mullan
2. Rob Webber
3. Kieran Brookes
4. Dave Attwood
5. George Kruis
6. James Haskell
7. Chris Robshaw
8. Ben Morgan
9. Ben Youngs
10. George Ford
11. Christian Wade
12. Karl Eastmond
13. Henry Slade
14. Rokoduguni (if fit) or Yarde
15. Mike Brown
Subs:
Hartley
Marler
Wilson
Lawes
Fraser
Joe Simpson
Cipriani
May
Can’t play Watson at wing or fullback until he can catch a high ball
3 knockons, but the only forward giving us go forwards even though the boks targeted him (because he’s the only forward that gives us go forward). And watch a replay of the LeRoux break, I’d not be sure that Brown was going to bring his man down before the line, and the offload was sensational.
Definitely a yellow for Hartley, stupid, stupid stupid! What was he thinking, even if he thought he’d give only a penalty it was stupid.
Watson is in development, my guess Yarde is still injured and they had no choice.
Wade is a 14, Yarde can swap a bit more, but is mostly a 14. May hasn’t let us down yet, so May + Roko/Yarde based on injury for me.
Slade is very good, but he’s nothing like Manu, and that’s what we’re going to try and replicate.
I did watch the le Roux break several times and each time, I am more and more sure that Vunipola made a massive mistake – but yes it was a fabulous off-load.
Vunipola did go forward on occasion but it was all so formulaic – get ball, run straight at tackler. Morgan is far more imaginative with his carrying and mixes it up much more. BV for the bench vs Aus and he can run at knackered players in the last 20
Whether or not Watson is in development, he made a couple of high ball clangers that puts him out of contention for the moment (at least in my eyes).
Re Slade. No point in trying to replicate Manu cos, at least till Burgess comes in, you can’t. The closest is Burrell but he’s not that close. So why not try something different – a man with quick feet who can make lots of breaks at 12 and a ball player outside him to bring the back 3 into the game?
Interestingly, is Watson normally sound under the high ball for Bath? If so was it a case of first cap nerves?
For better or worst we should drop Care for starting the next 2 games and have Youngs and Dickson starting & on the bench.
I’m not sure about everyone else but was this much worst or on par with our awful 2013 6 nation performance because it seems so. Also i am beginning to think that Twelvetrees added balance to our team.
Big Dia
Incl the gaff when Habana was clearly out when he caught that ball?! England went on to score from the resultant line out when SA were down to 14. Works both ways. IMO, as prev stated elsewhere, the TMO should CONTROL the game in so far as he can override mistakes or replay events that the ref misses. However, try getting anyone to approve this. Besides I reckon Owen v the ABs was a bit naff too when, e.g., he pinged NZ when they clearly shunted the English scrum. Or when they’d won a ruck 10 hrs earlier & he then pinged them again. What?! Penalising an attacking team? Surely not. Like I say; ‘Works both ways’.
Benjit
In a prev blog you said I was complacent about the ABs. Yr opinion, not mine BTW, but I’ve been pretty consistent regds England under Lancaster. Now, not only yr pundits, but yr fellow bloggers here are querying the England H. coach. It’s largely about his coaching & not ‘playing’ a better skilled game @ speed (of thought as well as deed). E.g., If Attwood had run left to the defender before offloading instead of RIGHT, he would NOT have butchered a CERTAIN try… with a 2(?) man over lap! That’s surely something that should be coached over & over til these fwds ARE familiar with taking the right option. With some it’s an instinctual thing, but not for most & esp not for some English fwds. This HAS to be turned around…. for England’s sake. The oppo won’t always be reduced to 14 when yr team bulldozes a weakened ‘D’ pack. I think you (& others) only ‘hear’ criticism, instead of considering whether it has any merit or not. Besides it’s good for the SH if England lose agin them prior to the WC? But I am interested in the who, what, how, when, where & why’s of what happens in a game, so maybe my views are put into a slightly diff context for you now.
No idea what you’re talking about Don, I have been a regular critic of SL and was being critical in my post above? Care to elaborate?
Egg Chaser
Did you see the same incident as almost everyone else seems to have? Hartley stamped on the guy. It’s a yellow under the rules. That’s it, whether you or I or anyone else likes it. In the good ol’, bad ol’ days the Saffa would have had the skin flayed of his limb, but not now. Besides, last week, would you still have binned Coles, the AB hooker, for ‘lashing out’ (with minimal contact @ best) after he’d been illegally pulled back when he had no ball & was trying to get back into the NZ side of the ruck… by, funnily enough, Hartley? Both, technically, ought to have been binned under current rules for that incident… or neither? Depending on the severity of the ‘misdemeanour’? But you can’t have it both ways… or when it goes agin yr team.
It’s a fair point.
I would say that the incident last week was actually addressed by the officials who deemed the matter to be an aggravater which caused Coles to lash out, but that it didnt interfere with play to an extent that it gave the other team an unfair advantage….yes Hartley shouldn’t of tugged his shirt, but the ruck was formed and the ball already won.
In this incident however,it was a rolling maul and interference with it garnered the opposing team an unfair advantage, and whilst last week’s incident was noted, Walsh did not even think to consider the aggravating factors as Owens did last week, which might’ve mitigated or even reversed the decision.
I’d already said i thought Walsh had a decent game but for this decision in my opinion; so i cant really be accused of ref bashing or sour grapes….but from an Englishman’s perspective… it was a penalty certainly, but not a card. Having said that, hindsight is a wonderful thing, the decision has been made and England lost.
Don, you were making a reasonable point until you had a go at Hartley for a tug. If that was illegal, the ABs should have had about 20 penalties against them. They are masters at disrupting attacking players with tugs and hits and don’t even get me started on blocking kick chasers. The SAs would have been reduced to 2 men if the ref started enforcing that as well. Not as subtle as the kiwis admittedly. All teams do it, you just have to accept that hookers have a bit of an attitude problem the world over, especially kiwi hookers, lest we forget Hore!
For me, again, I think too many here are for just shuffling the deck chairs. Shooting the messengers. Sure Ford, or the EXP Cipriani (!?), e.g., are able to play a fundamentally different, or ‘attacking’, game from Farrell (this is nothing new however, Farrell has always been a club player of limited ability & esp so for In’tal level), but really, in midfield & in the fwds there’s too little variation in attack. Fwds, e.g., Billy V, take the ball frontally into contact instead of varying their running lines, slightly inwards, to the inside shoulder of the tackler. This makes it harder for the oppo to effect his tackle. Or what about even offloading accurately & the RIGHT time, i.e., just BEFORE making contact? Also the ball needs to be relentlessly quicker for the attackers to run on to, backs or fwds. And the backs from 1/2 to centres, or even wings, ought to vary their play with wrap arounds, or have the f back running directly behind say, the inside centre, who whips it straight back to the former, taking the latter’s line into a confused defender who is suddenly confronted with a ‘new’ attacker. The wings & f back ought to enter the line more often too. The kickers need to land the ball with an attacking wide man arriving on a defender’s door step at the same time as the ball – IF it should be kicked in the 1st place! All this must be done at speed & ideally in or nr the oppo 22. And the fwds must win the br down en mass. If they can’t do this, then this has to be addressed in coaching yesterday. Why doesn’t SL just study what they teams whom he loses to do & do what they do (lotta do’s I know), but better? His ‘vision’ must surely be fading even for him by now? What is this vision anyway? Pride, discipline (Hartley?), out with exp? AND HE SAYS HE WON’T DEVIATE?! Oh & the players need to straighten their attack; unlike Attwodd who butchered a cert on Sat.
PS: I know I’ve advocated Atters before. Plenty ballast, lineout ability, puts himself about etc, but at Int’al level? He ought to have been better coached to run an inside, not an outside line. Down to you know who? But perhaps like Thatcher, SL’s not for turning… & look what happened to the Iron Lady in the end. She got rust! Ah well on to Samoa for some relief… perhaps.
Hartley definitely deserved a yellow in that maul. Whoever says that Vermeulen should’ve gotten a yellow doesn’t know the rules as he tried to sack the jumper immediatly after he touched ground, which is perfectly legal. Hartley was stupid and you can see he stepped on Vermeulen’s leg on purpose, which is illegal.
Staggy
I was being specific. As I recall, Coles was unattached, on the ground & Hartley (who has a history) pulled him back without the ball. Yr comments are general. What about Hore? What about Neil Back? All ancient & don’t justify the incident reffed to.
Egg Chaser
Ditto 1st sentence. Was it legal to do so when Coles was not attached & trying to get back to his side of the play? Esp if ‘Hartley shouldn’t of tugged his shirt’.