Comments on: Ellis Park epic highlights gulf between the best and the rest

By: Jay August

Jay August — Sat, 12 Oct 2013 12:51:02 +0000

I suspect the Australians may just surprise everyone. Can they be much worse than the last 4 months. The Argentinians I suspect will have the usual mix of really dangerous and completely dysfunctional. SA are likely to give youngsters Goosen, Steph-Du Toit and Serfontein more game time. NZ can pick just about anyone at the moment and still be favourites. Personally I would like to see much more of Beauden Barrett. Tonga and Samoa will most likely as usual give someone a huge fright.

By: Bill Burgess

Bill Burgess — Fri, 11 Oct 2013 21:07:30 +0000

I think a lot will also depend who SA and the All Blacks send for these internationals. The Boks players are straight into Currie Cup so maybe the selectors will give some of them a rest. The All Blacks and Wallabies still have the last Bladisloe test match and there is some talk of the AB resting some key players for tour..It is ironic that the Wallabies have the “Grand Slam ” tour and I think they will have their strongest squad although they may use the the tour to try and “find ” new talent! Whether the AB or the Boks send their strongest squads or not they will still be a handful for the home unions and France. The tour however is not all about the “big three”. There are many other international matches involving the likes of Argentina and Tonga so much to look forward to. Yes we do hope that the referees are consistant and hopefull Nigel Owens recent performance will inspire his counterparts!

By: Matt

Matt — Fri, 11 Oct 2013 17:31:49 +0000

Australia should send their props to play in France for a year. With nothing below Super Rugby I just don’t think they get enough of a challenge, they aren’t up against top class operators week in week out.

I hope they don’t, I’m enjoying the spectacle of them being shamed in the scrum after becoming masters of the non-scrum in under the old rules.

By: Matt

Matt — Fri, 11 Oct 2013 17:24:20 +0000

Historically I think it’s a fair criticism, but I think this is one area Lancaster has done well.

Here are a few recent graduates from age group rugby:
– Owen Farrell
– Billy & Mako Vunipola
– Christian Wade
– Freddie Burns
– Joe Launchbury
– Joe Marler
– Marland Yarde
– Matt Kvesic

That’s before you look at the Saxons.

Clubs have to maintain an average of 14 EQP (English Qualified Players) in their match day squads to get an incentive payment. Here’s some data I could find on a quick search.

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/news/17888.php#.UlgvTlCTheU

Of course we would all like more, but I don’t think it’s a major issue (as it is in France).

One of the reasons I think we’ve not historically translated U20 success into senior success is we have produced too many U20 gym bunnies who have overpowered less physically developed age group opposition, but haven’t developed skills to match their guns. Watching the U20 cup this year we played some great stuff, so hopefully that trait can now be consigned to the history books. As a complete digression I do worry about how many more of the Chalmers type cases are out there, “get big before you get tested”, gym and protein only gets you so far!

By: Jay August

Jay August — Fri, 11 Oct 2013 16:38:44 +0000

England have a really poor record of bringing young players through to the international side. I’m less than convinced that the good England U20 sides recently will follow through to the senior side. Ben Ford in Oz/ SA or NZ would already be in the national squad. In England he may never get there. Just how many of the England U20 squad of the last 3 years can you see in the current England training squad?

I’ll be contentious here and say that the main reason UK youngsters don’t get the quick leg up that their SH counterparts do is that the premiership teams have far too many foreign players taking their places. In the SH when a name player departs for foreign shores a promising youngster has a spot almost immediately.

By: Jay August

Jay August — Fri, 11 Oct 2013 16:27:26 +0000

I hate to burst the Welsh bubble but having contributed the bulk of the team for the Lions matches, I’m almost sure the Welsh team will not be the force this NH season they would ordinarily be.

Time will tell if that is a fair assumption with the only leveller for the eoy matches being that the SH teams will be a little tender as well. Who knows how much that Ellis Park game has taken out of the SA and NZ teams?

In any case these eoy games will answer a number of questions about the gap between SH and NH, the durability and maturity of the Welsh team, if there is any ongoing improvement in the England team and whether the French have the mindset to play decent consistent rugby.

If we have one or two games even remotely approaching the Ellis Park game November will be a great rugby month. Hopefully the refs are up to it though!

By: Matt

Matt — Fri, 11 Oct 2013 13:28:36 +0000

ABs recorded a white wash in last year’s comp as well, and were looking well on course to a grand slam tour, before their ‘blip’ against England. So whilst I would make them 20 point favourites against any NH side they aren’t invincible.

Wales Vs Boks looks a great match up, Wales are the only NH side that can match their physicality in my opinion. Though my gut feel is Wales will be undercooked i
as there isn’t much prep time before the first fixture, so no cryotherapy training camps to get them ready and limited time to integrate the expats.

By: Liam

Liam — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 12:26:40 +0000

I think you could be right there! Probably Aus vs Wales will decide who comes out alive from the pool of death. And on current form you have to give it to Wales.

By: Chuckles

Chuckles — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 12:17:06 +0000

While I’m not disputing that NZ and SA are the top two rugby nations in the world right now, I do think this article rests on a fairly massive and invalid assumption: that you can judge a team based on single performances. This is a strong tendency in rugby and it’s ridiculous. Wales did not become the best team in the Northern Hemisphere because they thrashed England in Cardiff, and England did not become the best team in the world because they trashed the Blackness in November. The Ellis Park game was phenomenal, but if it were a one-off then it would mean very little in the grand scheme of things (as England’s defeat of the NZs proved, and Wales’ defeat of England may well prove in the future). It’s the consistency that determines how good a team is, and the reason NZ and SA are the two best teams in international rugby is that they are capable of producing performances approaching the calibre of the Ellis Park match on a regular basis.

By: Bill Burgess

Bill Burgess — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 11:46:46 +0000

Well Jan,they may well find a couple of Castros, Jannies, Beasts however , as you say, plenty of eggs/steak! England did do well on recent IRB Junior world championships however how many Estzabeths, Pat Lambies, Surfentains amongst these youngsters who can step up so quickly to full international level? Once again i would agree that AB/Boks would be favourites with the Boks continuing to improve, however, knockout rugby can produces huge suprises ala Francev All Blacks, and in most recent RWC Ire v Australia(who at that time were hot favourites). For me Eng and Wales will still go thro!

By: Jan

Jan — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 11:17:56 +0000

Good article Mr Hosie! Very kind of you!
Mmm, Liam! Not fully in agreement with your first comment, but with the second you are on the numbers!
Bill, I will not bet on the Aussies not finding some solutions! Their biggest problem is the front row, and they might find one or maybe two props out there! However, for a prop to become a Castro, Jones or Carl takes time and a lot of beef and eggs for breakfast! That’s not even mentioning all the training, mastering of the dark arts, etc. The next super season and end of the year tours will really be indicative of their state of affairs.
On the other hand, England have quite some talent coming through as was displayed in France with the Juniors and that could play a decisive role as far as depth is concerned.
Wales, at the moment is in the driving seat, but is the depth sufficient for the tournament? We saw the tremendous effect the unfortunate loss of Warburton had on them. If they remain intact as a team, surely they cannot be ignored.
But you may be correct.

By: Bill Burgess

Bill Burgess — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 10:47:35 +0000

Yes Liam you are correct however i think Australia will miss out . Cant see them improving enough over next year or so to make any impact. Lets see how they perform on their “Grand Slam” tour starting in November!