25 players have been retained by England to prepare for Sunday’s RBS 6 Nations match against Italy at Stadio Olimpico.
Forwards (15)
Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Backs (10)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Maro Itoje and Josh Beaumont are retained, but Elliot Daly and Matt Kvesic have been released.
40 replies on “England trims squad to 25 for Italy test”
No Daly again? Seems odd. Kvesic would have been a good choice this week also. Not going to be a downer and slag off the coaches choice though. A win is a win and there is plenty of time before the next World Cup. He may even hold off on Daly until the summer tour and pair him with Slade.
Aaagh, I can’t believe Kvesic has been discarded again. England were crap at the breakdown against Scotland. I don’t buy the line that Kvesic isn’t good enough. He has to be a better option than Haskell,although he did play well against the Scots. Surely part of Jones job is to help players achieve the capability to perform at Int’l level?
I’m surprised Daly has been given the bums rush too. The lack of creativity in England’s midfield didn’t matter too much last weekend but if EJ wants a cricket score against the Azzuri then he may find Farrell and Joseph come up short.
On appositive note, Beaumont’s inclusion is welcome as is the retention of Itoje.
I don’t think Farrell and Joseph were the problem in the creativity department, it was Ford’s lack of confidence and conviction in what he was trying to do.
Very surprised about Daly surely a better bench option than Alex not so Goode. This makes me think that Ford and Farrell combo will be given another go, hence Goode on the bench as auxiliary fly half cover.
Hmm. Really wanted Devoto to get a start, looks like I’ll have to wait. I can understand not wanting to chop and change, but do question whether Farrell at 12 is the right option.
He might be going with Farrell at 10, Devoto 12, Ford 22, Goode 23…
I’d like that too
He might be, but I doubt it. Daly would be a better shout in the 23 if one of Ford or Farrell are the bench.
Read somewhere – think ESPN Scrum or PR – that he might be considering a 6-2 split on the bench given the balance of forwards to backs in the retained squad, which improves Devoto’s chances of starting if it’s the case. It’s not the way I’d have gone but it also makes more sense than just shoving Goode on the bench when you’ve already got two wingers who can play full back and three options for 10 (if you include Devoto) already involved, unless you specifically want to bring Goode on at some point to change up the style of play.
I think it shows he intends Devoto to take some part in this game – whilst he could juggle the subs so that it didn’t happen I don’t think he wants to take the risk where he’d end up with two centres on debut having to play together. I’d have benched Daly too but can understand his thinking in fairness.
The people playing in the backline are not good enough, ok, bath’s awful form is not helping the matter but I would like to have seen Devoto given a chance or Hill, if fit. We need to find a 12 Farrell won’t do it there, just a stop gap really,
The only answer at 12 is Tuilagi! Every coach and every commentator (on here included) has turned over every stone in the rockery for the past 18 months looking for alternatives! I don’t think there is one better than mr T. The average size of a 12 has gotten so big that it seems to preclude most of the other options. Tuilagi must be laughing!
Maybe we should target a few more south sea islanders from under the ABs noses just to piss them off. No reason why they should have them all particularly as they began the trend or is it an arms race?
That is surely miles from being true considering two semi finalists had Giteau and Hernandez in the 12 shirt during the WC…
What is true though is that almost every top team (with the honourable exception of Argentina) has at least one powerful runner in the centres to attack defences and bend the line
NZ – Nonu
Aus – Kuridrani
SA – all of their centres
Wales – Roberts
France – Fickou / Dumoulin and of course previously the enormous Bastareaud
Ireland – Henshaw
England need a big carrier in the backs. Watson and in particular Nowell get through a lot of work but don’t offer the power that is often needed against modern defences
I’d prefer to see power at 12 and play like the Kiwis with a ball player at 13. I’d like to see Tuilagi and Slade in those roles
Doesn’t necessarily need to be a centre mind. Someone like Rokoduguni or Yarde could provide the impetus for England
Don’t think it is as cut and dry as you say. SA have Kriel and De Allende, and whilst De Allende isn’t small – he isn’t in the Nonu/Kurandrani role. Kriel definitely isn’t that mold.
Henshaw is probably similar to De Allende for me, not a brute of a man. He’s played at 15 domestically – so I don’t really think it is a must. Australia often played AAC at 13 with a playmaker inside over the years and it didn’t make all that much difference.
II appreciate having a lump can help, but really it is about about getting over the gainline. On occasion, having a brute will do that. But if England can do it by half a JJ outside Slade using footwork and intelligence to break the gainline that it doesn’t bother me all that much.
Footwork and intelligence is brilliant but often you need some power to get you going forward – especially against very well organised defences.
Its not neccesarily about sheer size either. Allende is’t huge but he plays like a bigger man. You mention AAC – again not massive but a very powerful ball carrier
Henshaw BTW is 6’4 and 16 stone plus change.
Powerful men cause problems. You know what they are going to do but its one thing knowing it, its another thing stopping it – witness Tuilagi whilst he was uninjured and playing well for England. He wasn’t a great passer, his off-loading was OK and defences knew he was coming straight at them but everyone still had problems stopping him.
And even if the ball didn’t come to him, the possibility that it might meant defences not only had to organise to protect the weaker tacklers but that they were constantly worried of the threat he posed. And that, especially when used well with dummy runs, creates gaps elsewhere
The perfect backline blends speed, intelligence and power – a la NZ with Nonu, Savea, Milner-Skudder and the Smiths
England’s backline from Sat had the first, had some of the second but lacked the third
I think we are mostly agreeing here. I stand by my point that you don’t need a big carrier at 12 – that simply isn’t true. You need big carriers somewhere, either then at 13 or on the wing.
16 stone isn’t quite the 17 plus of a Nonu or Roberts by the way, so I still wouldn’t put Henshaw in that category.
I don’t disagree that England need a bigger ball carrier, but I do think that at the moment (other than Fords form) we are picking the best options we have.
Devoto is a very good option at 12. A very big guy capable of busting big holes, and the ability to create and offload like a 10. He just needs to be given the chance.
Agree Devoto and Slade too are both good options at 12 for England.
Indeed. However much I like Tuilagi, his distribution and offloading game aren’t Itn’l 12 standard yet.
Devoto would be a good option for this match but needs to develop alot more before he can be consided a long term option. I can’t help thinking his stock has risen recently without many people actually seeing much of him play, as a Bath fan, i watch every game and I do think he has potential but he can be very inconsistant (not too dissimilar to 36), moments of brilliance followed by something stupid.
I guess its true the more games a player doesn’t play (and the media hype them) the better a player becomes…. For me the best future two options we have are Tuliagi and Slade, Tuilagi is proven (if he can return to form, which he looked like it for Leicester before he got injured again) and Slade showed glimpses of brilliance in the summer (although none of us have seen him play at 12 yet).
I just went searching for news on when Tuilagi will be back from injury (20th Feb apparently) and was amused by these comments from Cockerill on Ed Slater, another Leicester injury absentee:
“Ed Slater is still not fit this week. He lacerated his hand making breakfast in the morning last weekend. The moral of the story is, don’t take a really sharp knife and try and cut a frozen bagel! The knife slips off the side of it, cuts your hand and you have 14 stitches and you can’t play. He is disappointed with himself. He won’t be making breakfast any more”.
Poor Ed Slater must be beginning to think he’s cursed…
There’s a photo of said injury somewhere on twitter. Don’t search for it if you are at all squeamish
Very disappointed to see Daly released, he makes so much sense for the 23 shirt. That being said, I’m hoping this means he intends to give Devoto a good amount of game time at 12, and he doesn’t want to play two debutants in the midfield at the same time.
Glad he is having a look at Beaumont, I’m a big fan of his. I can’t see any changes to the actual 23 this week though, I’d be surprised if he does make any.
Personally I’d make two to the XV. Clifford for Robshaw – back row lacked pace. Devoto for Ford – just because Ford looks so woefully out of form.
Should’ve read down the thread before posting above! Great minds think alike obviously…
EJ’s comments: We’ll pick the best 23 to play against Italy and the conditions in Italy will be different, so the squad will be slightly different,” he said.
“The playing conditions will be considerably different. They will be warmer, a faster pitch, different referee so I am anticipating we will be able to get our attack going a lot quicker than we did against Scotland.
“I’ve said it’s going to be a faster game so we could pick a faster pack.”
Makes me wonder if he’s thinking about playing Itoje or Beaumont at 6, or even Itoje at 6 with Beaumont at 8? I just hope he gives Devoto some game time at 12 this weekend, as I think a combo of Farrell, Devoto and Joseph would be far more effective than Ford, Farrell and Joseph.
Interesting. I would bet Clifford would be the one he is thinking about then, probably the quickest forward out of the lot. Maybe Mako as well? Bit more dynamic than Marler.
I don’t see Itoje or Beaumont starting – but maybe both on the bench?
Nice to have a coach that understands different gameplans are needed for different occasions. Fills me with some hope that he plans to bring in a more expansive game plan as and when it is possible.
I would like to see Mako in the team, not that Marler played ok but he does not offer the same thing. Mako gives more ball carrying and more mobility than Marler.
Changes:
Mako for Marler
Itoje for Lawes
CLiford for Haskell
Devoto for Farrell
Mako has come on leaps and bounds at scrum time too, so it’s not longer a case of swapping set piece for solidity for a bit of stardust in the loose. Just a better all round player than Marler at this moment in time IMO.
Devoto for Farrell? You mean Ford right? Ford was poor last week, and if anyone of the back line needs to be benched it is him.
Having mulled on this overnight, I can see why EJ has gone for Ford and Farrell again (and therefore Goode ahead of Daly for reasons stated above). It deserves a second chance to see if it can work, and maybe with some quicker ball and more opportunities they may prove some of us doubters wrong. I do hope that Devoto gets a decent chance to show what he can do, at least 20 minutes.
Clifford is a certainty probably alongside Haskell, do we need Robshaw on the bench? Hmm not convinced. Would rather spaces for Beaumont and Itoje within the 23, Robshaw can always slip back in for Ireland. I think a full on 50 minutes from Billy to soften the Italians up, then rest him for the Ireland match and give Beaumont a lash, maybe Itoje to start with Kruis, and give Launcbury a rest after his illness.
Can’t believe that Daly and Kevesic have been overlooked yet again. Alex Goode is dire for England and should be dropped full stop. When finally fit, I would like to see Tuilagi and Daly in the centres. Ford has now shown consistently shown that he well below international par and if Cipriani is not part of the consideration then I would accept Farrell at 10. Last rant, Give Mako a shot instead of Marler and play Clifford from the off.
Mako is and always has been far more effective in the last 20 than starting for the following reasons
1. Despite what some people have posted his scrummaging is way below the standard of Marlers. He struggled on Saturday against Nel but did ok against Fagerson therefore he is more suited to playing against the oppos 2nd choice tighthead or a tired 1st choice
2. Almost all props play less than 80 minutes in the modern game so he always gets on
3. He gets more freedom to express himself in the loose against tired defences than fresh ones
Jacob re your answer about Giteau and Hernandez I had meant (probably not clearly) the available options at 12 for the perennial English vacancy in that position.
The only player large enough to embody the crash ball basher role is Devoto as Dazza I think, as a Bath fan, says is not ready yet (not 1st choice at Bath)!
I agree with whoever said Tuilagi at 12 and Slade at 13 would be the perfect answer. The modern reality is that one large centre is def needed (whether at 11 or 12). As an ex full back/wing I remember doing a stand in stint to cover an injury at 12 and being clattered/dumped because I was too light/small (could get away with it at 13/14 or 15.
Can you remember the Tait experiment at centre when the guy was dumped by Henson. It was the end of his international career! De Glanville was another who struggled in the mid 2003-2007 years (yes already by then was the emergence of bulked up players a reality – ABs especially.
Tuilagi now and Devoto in a year or two!
I don’t think it is all about size though. Other than Nonu/Roberts – most don’t have massive Tuilagi size lumps in their team.
By the way, I’d pick Tuilagi every day of the week if he was fit. I just don’t think that alternative don’t work. And I certainly don’t think that he is the only real option at 12 for England.
While we’re on this subject does anyone think Burrell is showing the sort of form that could get him re-selected?
Also think Harry Mallinder looks pretty good.
Meant Tuilagi at 11 and Slade 13. My mistake
Tuilagi at 11?? Now that is a whole other conversation. Not a popular suggestion usually, but I’d quite like to see him “getting his Savea on” in that role…
I am strongly of the opinion Itoje is needed at 6 as he is an athlete breaks tackles and a great 3rd lineout option.Robshaw Wood and Haskell are slow lumps in comparison.Maro at 6 Jack at 7 and Billy at 8 is a backrow that makes my mouth water.
This idea that speed will solve all our problems in the backrow is misguided. What is needed is an ability to understand where the play is going and to play accordingly. McCaw isn’t particularly fast but is always in the right place at the right time. Richard Hill was no faster than Robshaw or Haskell but was amazingly effective.
Robshaw is not the quickest flanker for sure but nor is he a ‘slow lump’. He has a superb engine and some of that ability to be in the right place – even if he isn’t quite a McCaw or Hill
Have a look at the very interesting stats put together by the fellas at Green & Gold rugby after the Wales and Aus world cup games. In both games, Robshaw leads the ruck stats for the England team by some distance and was only bettered by a quite incredible performance from Gethin Jenkins in the Wales game and the machine that is Pocock in the Aus game.
Robshaw was everywhere in both games and I’d argue that neither were amongst his best performances in an England shirt.
http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/rwc-analysis-know-your-enemy/
http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/rwc-ruck-analysis-aus-v-eng/
If you take out this work rate by dropping Robshaw, you need to replace him with someone who will get through a similar mountain of work in the rucks. For all their qualities, I am not sure that either Itoje or Clifford are those players.