I wrote when England’s World Cup squad was announced that the selection of Sam Burgess could define Stuart Lancaster’s career as coach of the national side. I take that back now, because if the rumours are true (which they always are) and Owen Farrell, Sam Burgess and Brad Barritt start against Wales this weekend, it is an even bigger decision.
Once Jonathan Joseph was injured (which, worryingly, is being reported as a longer-term issue than first thought) then all bets were off. There were always going to be changes in the midfield, and with Ford struggling to play his natural game behind a pack that has been badly beaten up at times in the last month, no-one was really assured of their place.
Apart from Brad Barritt, of course. Barritt is a warrior, a man who tackles with his face and would lay everything on the line for England. That is fine; there is a place for that. But I do not think it is with Owen Farrell and Sam Burgess inside him.
In many ways, this is Lancaster’s dream midfield. Chris Robshaw aside, Farrell, Barritt and Burgess are probably the three men that embody the head coach’s values of commitment and hard work better than any other. Joseph’s injury has provided the perfect opportunity to put them all in the same team together.
What grates, however, is the many, many occasions in the past year or so that Lancaster has talked about getting the balance right in his midfield. About having one ball player and one ball carrier.
I mean, you could, but why would you set about eating a meal with three spoons? Three inside centres at 10, 12 & 13 for me… #ENG #RWC2015
— Sam Roberts (@samrobertsrugby) September 22, 2015
Where, exactly, is the balance in this midfield? There is none. Burgess is a sublime ball carrier and loves to offload, but it is a skill that he is still learning in union and one that is still being developed. Owen Farrell has many qualities, but he is far from the best play-maker in this squad. Brad Barritt is the polar opposite of creative.
In isolation, I have no problem with picking any of Farrell, Barritt or Burgess against Wales. Farrell is a calm head, perfect for England’s biggest game since the last World Cup. Burgess provides the midfield penetration that was lacking against Fiji. Barritt tackles men with his face. All good qualities. But together, it is far from a balanced midfield.
When England shocked everyone to beat Wales in Cardiff earlier this year, George Ford was sublime in his play-making and Jonathan Joseph’s jinking running style was something the Welsh defence simply couldn’t handle. Both of those players, for different reasons, are now gone and in their places are more physical but more technically limited players in Burgess and Farrell.
Of course I may well be proved wrong and it could be a masterstroke. But it doesn’t feel like this is a midfield that the Welsh are going to be especially worried about – a quick look at Twitter last night confirmed as much. They have plenty of big men themselves; they know how to defend against power.
Let's get this straight.
Lancaster will play an inside centre, outside a backrow forward, who hasn't really played inside centre before?
— Paul Williams (@thepaulwilliams) September 22, 2015
What they have struggled against is a midfield with a bit more guile; just look at their results against Australia – a team that always stacks their backline with playmakers.
So, this is very much a midfield selection that reflects Lancaster as a coach; hard-working and pragmatic. World Cups are all about winning, and against a dangerous team like Wales you need decent dollops of hard work and pragmatism, for sure.
But I can’t help but feel that, up against a Welsh midfield that also has those values in spades, you need a bit of something else; a bit of devil. There is none of that.
This will be death by 1,000 crashballs for someone. I hope the wingers bring gloves.
By Jamie Hosie
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I posted on the other thread that I think this selection is more about negating Wales than it is about creating anything with our backline. Thus reducing the game to a forward battle. It’s a selection stating that we are going to win this game with our forward pack, we’ll win penalties in your half and we have a dead-eye goal kicker to take them. A win is a win and we don’t care if it’s a narrow one. It’s a confident selection in it’s own way. I just fear that the England pack haven’t been going well enough to justify it. Of course just like everyone else here I would have gone for a more creative midfield.
If this is his dream midfield then it confirms what I’ve thought for the past 4 years, that Lancaster is out of his depth and does not have an effing clue.
Totally and utterley agree Benjit.No idea how to select a team whether at World Cup or Extra B.I cannot believe it’s as bad as it is.Part of the problem is favourites regardless of form coupled with League influence of AF.
Credit in the bank. Although it appears easier to open an account at the Bank of Lancaster for some.
Absolutely and utterly agree Benjit . Only Lancaster could consider this combo a dream midfield.Safety,safety ,safety with a little bit of nepotism/cronyism thrown in for good measure.
It all comes back to his selection policy and his personality,(one mirroring the other obviously.) I despair I really do. OK,so there’s a reasonable chance that Roberts will be nullified but after that what? Burgess will inevitably get caught out of position at some point,Barritt will bring no attacking spark, and no kicking game,Slade will be wondering why he wasn’t trusted to do a job and Ford will be suffering a crisis of confidence.
Please Lancaster,whenthis sorry debacle of a world cup (for England) is over, leave and take your second rate coaching staff with you.
Firstly Farrell is a playmaker. I refer you to his performance in the premiership final where he opened up Bath at will and the Fiji game where he was the creative input required. He plays with Barritt outside him at club level where the pair of them cut down big runners at will (which is Wales plan ABC through to Z). Add the monster that is Burgess to that equation then Wales will have to find different ways through midfield which they are incapable of.
Add to that Burgess on attack running in angles that will allow an exciting back three and/or a mobile back row opportunities to work off his off loading ability then that will frighten the Welsh defence.
Lastly Farrell is the best kicking game managing 10 in world rugby. His use of the kicking game to turn what will undoubtedly be a big Welsh team will be what wins the game for England.
I don’t think it’s Farrell’s selection alone that’s bothering people. It’s the balance as the article says. I think his selection is less about what you’re pointing out and more about him having 5″ and 2 stone on Ford. Less change for Roberts and others running down the 10 channel.
I’m English and have a lot of time for Farrell, but Sexton is a better game manager. The thing with the selection isn’t really against Farrell, it’s the lack of balance because just as people are saying we’ll be ok because Wales crash ball and we can defend that, they’ll be saying the same thing.
We need that point of difference, either jj foot work or slades extra play making, something to put their defence in two minds.
Have we looked better than in that first French game, for 50 minutes before our third choice pack started getting marmalised?
Backline that day was Wigglesworth, Farrell, Burgess, Slade with May, Watson and Goode.
Brown was phenomenal and keeps his place from last week without question, but other than that I’d go with the backline from the France game – so change the entire midfield. I wouldn’t even mind if you kept Barritt as well at the expense of Burgess, but with Farrell in at 10 and Joseph out, I think Slade as second-playmaker becomes indispensable – and I do not think that word is too strong.
Our back three are our strongest attacking threat, even more so with Joseph out. If you include Cipriani’s try against France in the second test (when he came on at 15), our back three have scored 8 tries in the last 4 tests, and 7 of them have come from May, Watson and Brown. We need that second playmaker in the centres to get the ball to them, especially as Farrell’s distribution is possibly slightly below Ford’s.
Our dangerous back three are going to be relegated to kick-chasing and the occasional counter-attack, when they offer so much more than that.
Completely agree Rob. Slade looks tailor-made for the 13 shirt in this backline – but it’s probably too big an occasion for someone so inexperienced. Which, of course, begs the question: why was he selected in the squad if he’s not ready for this sort of game?
The only issue I have with your points above is that playing Wales in a World Cup is a very, very different kettle of fish to playing the second string French team in a friendly…
Too big an occasion for someone so inexperienced…except Burgess
Throw Slade in over Barritt and all of a sudden it looks like a good back line
To use the cutley analogy above
Slade the Knife, Burgess the spoon and Farrell the spork
Instead we have a spork and two spoons and Wales are not made of soup
Still need that “like” button.
JRWC winner, key playmaker for the Chiefs in the premiership..inexperienced..? really. I don’t think so
Looks like a scared selection to me. Picking playmakers and dancers is always a risk so he’s gone for raw power to, as suggested, get the win any which way. It’s all about coach control – he knows exactly what Burgess/Farrel/Barrit will do. They will follow the playbook 100% and he would seem to feel more comfortable knowing that. A mark of respect for Wales as he seems to be expecting a tough, tough game.
Anyone who mistakenly thinks that our centres don’t have any guile have obviously not watched much of Williams/JD2 (who unfortunately isn’t playing). Unlike Barrit our centre’s are capable of both bosh and passing.
I’m still not confident of a win but I feel better knowing we’re playing against the Kray twins in the centre. Probably nails on Lyds to start, to help JR with the defensive line, with Tips to come on later once things open up and/or Eng call a centre from the bench – an actual centre as opposed to a back row forward and a human wall.
Liam Williams starting will mean we have that extra running threat in attack. North is no mug when it comes to playing the ball. For me the chances now all hinge on* whether we may finally see Gats drop Cuthbert as I would love to see Amos on the field for this one.
* and of course whether we can get a fit XV anywhere near Twickenham in the first place.
Jez, I’d concede that some of your opinions are worth of debate and show an admiral belief in the superiority of your team and the lack of quality in the opposition. All good one eyed stuff. However, to even suggest that “Farrell is the best kicking game managing 10 in world rugby” is hilarious beyond compare. Ever heard of Sexton? I hear that Dan Carter fellow is ok as well.
For me it’s summed up by the fact that if you’d asked any Welshman to pick our dream 10/12/13 out of the Eng RWC squad for this match then it would be this. No dancing feet to worry about. No maverick passes or intuitive line attacks. With the lack of confidence created by the injuries this is exactly what we need this game to be right now.
Still think we’ll lose though…. because I am a pessimist ….
“Welshman to pick our dream 10/12/13 out of the Eng RWC squad for this match then it would be this” …… That said it will be won in the forwards anyway. No?
Yeah, it will be. I don’t know what to make of our forwards as the front 3 are all a bit suspect on fitness. I think our 2nd rows and backrow has the edge over Englands but worry about whether we’ll have enough in the front 3 to get the rest near the ball.
Brighty – A pessimist is an optimist with experience.
DDD
?
“Pacific not Aran!”
Only wimps whimper!
Righting the wrongs – fighting for justice – KAAPOW!
I don’t see it as one eyed, it is a valid criticism of the Welsh only having one plan. When Gatt ball works it is highly effective. When it doesn’t what can Wales do differently. The biggest loss to either side in the centres is Jonathan Davies who is the one Welsh three quarter with any guile. Why James Hook hasn’t been called up is anyone’s guess.
Where this game will be won, however, is at scrum time and at the breakdown. If either pack is beat up then the bosh units will not get going. If Wales cough up as much turnover ball as they did against Uruguay they will struggle hugely with England’s runners (particularly May, Watson and Brown). If England get on the wrong side of ref there will be trouble.
For me in a low try count England by 7-10. Could easily be other way round.
I rate Scott Williams highly and would take him at the drop of the hat. But I think he is a little less known so most people are going on JR. Good at what he does- bosh and tackle. Same as Barrett just better at carrying. South Africa in the autumn I’m sure it said in the player ratings on this site that he didn’t pass once.
But defo a selection of fear on Lancaster part
I don’t think that Welsh centres have no guile at all, but do you really believe that Roberts/Williams (likely centre partnership on Saturday?), have the guile of a Giteau or a Conrad Smith? The point people are making about the Welsh centres is that really, the Welsh are the team that Burgess will be most comfortable playing against, as he is far less likely to be pulled consistently out of position in defense.
“have the guile of a Giteau or a Conrad Smith” – no, I don’t think that. But I don’t agree with the 2nd part of “Wales will have to find different ways through midfield which they are incapable of” either, which is what I was replying to (or trying to reply to).
I think the pt isn’t being made by some in as nuanced a way as you suggest Jacob. Yes, we will pull him around less than the centres of NZ and Aus (though beyond that I’m not so sure – I’d say we have more creative centres in the squad than the rest of the challengers) so if he is going to start one game then perhaps this is it. That would be something with debating points. The pt is usually far simpler i.e. “Warrenball”, bosh, bosh, incapable of being creative, etc.
As I’ve said above though – it may be the best game for him to start but I’d rather the Welsh team face him and Barrit than a pair with one of Slade/JJ/Burrel.
I think anyone that watches Wales should realise quite quickly that they are not limited to boshing through the middle of the park. They do however have a fairly simple game plan which I rarely see them divert from, even when it isn’t working. They go round the corner a lot in attack again and again, either through a forward, Roberts or Cuthbert/North off a half back. I think the main point is that against some I would worry about Burgess defensively, even a Pollard/Sexton could do the same to him that I can’t imagine Biggar doing.
However, in attack I imagine we will be quite stunted which is incredibly frustrating when we have Slade sitting in the wings.
Reading that back I realise the middle part makes little sense (that’s what I get for typing it whilst on a work conference call).
My point about the Wales gameplan is that nothing is too fancy. Attack the fringes with strong ball carriers and only go wide when it is really on, which can take time in a test match. Wales would rather get North involved through the middle than risk going wide too early. There are loads of positives to that (you only need to watch Englands first half against Fiji to see how bad it is when you go wide too soon), but equally I don’t expect England to be pulled apart by Wales attack.
We could easily lose, but I can’t see if being anything to do with Burgess.
Looking forward to Burgess being made a fool off defensively now on Saturday now I’ve said that…
I don’t see any of these three individually as a sig. issue. It’s all three together. Nobody to run off Barrit/Burgess lines. Given each of them passes less than 50% of the time you end up with a compound small chance of the wings ever getting anything.
Still don’t think it’s enough to put Wales in the box seat but I still believe it is the best selection we could have hoped for.
Burgess and Barritt are a combination I will never understand. Farrell at least looks in some serious form recently so I’m ok with that.
Be interesting to see what the line ups actually look like when announced. Whilst Wales clearly have many injury problems, I still think we could end up seeing a XV that is only 3 or 4 short of full strength.
Sometimes when I watch I wonder if they are trying to play North through the middle or if he get’s frustrated and throws himself in, he is the sort of player who wants the ball and wants to push the line whether its a run of 10m through the middle of the full length on the wing, he wants to get involved.
Whilst we can all see this isn’t an ideal English lineup, we all know it’s not going to be an ideal Wales lineup either, odds are we will be setting up to counter specific threats both ways to keep it a close game, but at the same time doing that creates openings, you have to plan for any eventuality whilst preparing for the most likely. I would imagine the players we haven’t seen much of will be the most impressive in the game.
Maybe this is a grand wind up by the DT. For years they have been building our trust with reliable team selections two days before they are actually announced and now they are pulling the wool over Gatland’s eyes, when in fact JJ is fit and will play outside of Barritt OR Burgess with Ford at 10 and Slade on the bench… Or actually Lancaster is a plank (I reserve the right to withdraw the last part if the midfield works on Saturday).
Sorry but the “Plank” is the retired besmirching name for Gatland – can’t be used for any other coach. Gatland is now “The Floating Turd”. there are many derogatory names that can be used for Lancaster – Let me suggest “The Gimp” – you don’t have to run with it though if you don’t want to.
Glad to be of help!
DDD
“Pacific not Aran!”
Only wimps whimper!
Righting the wrongs – fighting for justice – KAAPOW!
Intriguing though. As a Wales fan, I still persist in believing JJ will play – these are only ‘rumours’ remember, and could be simply designed to wrong-foot Welsh preparations, who knows. Perhaps that’s too Machiavellian, Lancaster’s supposed to be straightforward and honest. But this is a World Cup; any little advantage you can squeeze out before a big game is justified; ask Gatland!
That’s my concern, too!
That said, it could be quite demoralising on the players involved if they’re told their reported selection is only to play a trick on the opposition coach!
As far as I can see Tali they are saying JJ is out for the next 3 matches, not just this one…
Surely if that is the case they will drop him and call a replacement cos they won’t have a 4th game if they don’t win 2 out of 3 at least
Quite
Hope Elliott Daly has his bags packed
If only. If anyone will be called up it will be Burrell. Northern. Played league. Coached by Stu at Leeds and for the Saxons. I was staggered that Slade got in ahead of him tbh.
Sums it up for me. I might even stretch to being able to argue Farrell + Burgess (more experienced fly-half at international level with a straight running centre who made a difference last game) but Barritt at 13 is dire. Not quite Tindall-Noon dire, but dire nonetheless. Also, why did Lancaster build a team with only 1 player he really trusts at 13? If the plan was for a centre wall, why keep Slade and send home Burrell?
In answer to your last question, because despite being smaller Slade is superior in defence and attack to Burrell. The more pertinent question is why pick a player if you have no intention of playing him?
This is so disheartening. Especially since putting Slade in over Barritt (who had a torrid day against Fiji anyway – missed tackles, conceded penalties, anything else dreadful that I missed?) seems so logical and would moreover restore much of the balance. Farrell a bit less creative than Ford? Slade provides an electric second playmaker. No guile in the midfield? Burgess can create all sorts of holes for Slade to exploit with his pace and step (let alone create some interesting opportunities to bring the back three in on second or third phase ball). Defensive concerns? I don’t think anyone is worried about Burgess not boshing enough, he just might not be doing it in the right position on the field, which is where having Farrell (no slouch defensively) on his inside would be useful.
Just don’t understand the logic of including Barritt at 13 at all.
Damage limitation plain and simple.
Scottish Stu is hoping that the England pack are better than the depleted/injured Welsh side. Stu knows that with Wales he can grind out a win on penalties, Farrell kicking to the corners and the anticipated England forward power.
A joke really since he has had this team for 4 years and is still not sure of his best 15 and what way to play the game. The whole Burgess thing just does not make sense and other teams will tear the guy apart at this level. He’s a novice in Union and has not even played at 12 all the time at Bath.
Team selection, as rumoured, will almost certainly work v Wales, given the state Wales are in with all their injuries.
But….. this alleged selection will not worry the ABs, Aus, France, Ireland or even the Boks (who will not be as bad as they were v Japan or else they’ll be hung from telegraph poles on the Veld if they go home b 4 the semis).
For once Enoch,I agree with you. Don’t underestimate the number of England fans who would love to say “adios” to Lancaster.
Still hoping it is all a wind up of Gatland, for me Slade must start if JJ is actually injured. Ford V Farrell can be debated all day & Burgess has done enough to take Barritts place. Also like the calls for Wigglesworth to start i.e. Rob’s backline with Brown as fullback instead of Goode. We will have to wait until both team sheets are in to know whether both coaches have been winding each other up all along
Apparently Goode is meant to be on the bench as well… words can’t describe what
Goode on the bench could be due to concerns about Brown’s fitness – he took a big knock scoring his 2nd try in the Fiji game so maybe not such a shock as the omission of Slade at 13
Goode on the bench is because of a lack of back three cover in the 23. With Joseph you had wing cover. Of course you could have Nowell (covers wings, fb and 13) and Slade (covers 10,12,13), but neither fit the bill (don’t play for Sarries, aren’t northern,,ex league or played for Stu at Leeds).
So is it the fact that the players coming in for most criticism of not being creative enough are Saracens players? Who won the premiership playing a high pressing defence that created scoring opportunities through attacking kick and chase, strong defence in opposition 22s and scored cracking tries throughout the season?
I am not going to watch I hope Wales win. How can we pick 10,12,13 who cant pass what are May and Watson going to do other than chase kicks. What must Ford and Slade be thinking No further on than we were 4years ago although we have much better players. The only saving grace is if the forwards play as badly as they have been it wont matter who the backs are they get any ball .
Out in the group stages in 2weeks oh well lets get it over with.
ps. who do you think will be the next England coach when Lancaster and Farrell are sacked
I hope the rfu are already talking to Eddie Jones and Borthwick!
Jones is going to Stormers and Borthwick Bristol I believe, they might be spoken for…
Is this the 10, 12, 13 combo to win the WC – No
Is it one that can beat Wales – Yes
There are potentially 6 more games to play and we have a squad of 31. This is just one selection for one game. Don’t panic.
When are Gatland and SL officially announcing their teams?
I am praying that the ‘Goode on the bench’ leak is just a plan to get Gatland so over-excited that he picks Cuthbert and Lydiate rather than Amos and Tipuric
Gatland doesn’t need to get over-excited to make that selection!
mjp I hope you are right I really do but Wales will have to play badly to lose.
If this is the case I feel sorry for Slade, he must wonder what he has to do! Big call for SL if JJ out for 3 games – if he doesn’t trust Slade then he must be thinking about calling a replacement up but who would he trust? Any news on Welsh front row injuries as I think this may directly affect the result.
I know as an Englishman I’m not allowed to be optimistic in case it will be perceived as arrogance but I think people are going a little crazy over the selections here. But I’m still confident England will put one over the Welsh, this isn’t based much on our fly half centre combo but that our scrum will come right and be the strength it was for the last two years and that we can master the breakdown just as we have done the last two time England played against Wales.
i notice most Welsh fans have done the usual, ‘”england look shite, they don’t know what they’re doing”before ending their comments with “but I still think Wales will lose” rubbish. Don’t worry you can convincingly blame a defeat on injuries, a smaller playing base, anything really apart from the fact that on the day England 23 were better than Wales’ 23.
Yeah, England fans are so magnanimous in defeat .. Cough … Steve Walsh …. Cough …..
As the old saying goes Brighty, Steve Walsh didn’t decide the result, just the margin of victory.
Walsh would have totally been the ref if hadn’t retired. Garces is a curious one. When it comes to the breakdown and set piece, if you can get him onside early on, he will give all the marginal calls your way for the rest of the match. Good start will be paramount.
Did Slade died?
I can understand Farrell being bought in at 10 as he’s certainly been at Ford’s heels for the past six months but both Barritt and Burgess in midfield is ludicrous considering Slade not only did nothing wrong but performed well when given his chance against France. He showed good hands and footwork and is the most like JJ only with deft distribution and a left peg to boot as well. And if you ask Rene Ranger you’ll find he’s no pushover in defence either.
I understand it is a partnership capable of beating Wales but if JJ doesn’t recover for the Aus game (which is looking uncomfortably likely), the natural choice is then to stick with the same formula instead of introducing Slade against the Wallabies. It’s in this situation where I fear the likes of Foley, Giteau, Toomua, Beale and (when he hits the line) Folau will completely show up the lack of pace the bigger men have.
Slade should have been a shoo-in. In fact I think his across the board skills should make him a shoo-in for England’s 12 jersey anyway after wasting so many caps on 12T. Seems the perfect foil for Tuilagi.
Anyone else starting to get seriously fed up with whiny Saracens fans trying to silence any criticism of Farrell/Barritt with some kind of pathetic victim complex?
I’m not sure I’ve seen such an unanimous response to an England selection.
Official press conference should be interesting tomorrow. Opening question should be:
“Stuart, are the words ‘I have a cunning plan’ marching with I’ll deserved confidence to this conversation. ..”
The word is similar to cunning…………………………………….!
Apparently Morgan is unfit so Haskell comes into the bench with BV starting…
Personally I think it’s a big ask for Burgess to be 100% in his positioning for 60-80mins. He’s up against 2 seasoned internationals, in what? his 4th or 5th game?
Burgess/Barritt will also be the first time they’ve played together… 4 or 5 phases in to a defensive set, I wouldn’t be surprised to see some positional mistakes. I’m not sure the Wales centres will have to come over ‘all Australia’ to exploit them.
Having said all that, I think the bosh v bosh will, for the most part cancel each other out, and that it’ll be decided in the forwards. England’s haven’t been setting the world on fire of late, and the Welsh are made of glass.
Latest from BBC – Jarvis is fine. Lee and James still being monitored, with Lee slightly ahead of James. They can delay sending home/calling up until 24hrs before kick off.
It seems likely then that the starting pack for Wales is going to be Melon/Baldwin/Francis AWJ/Charteris Lydiate/Faletau/Warburton