Comments on: Heineken Champions Cup: Round 2 Talking Points

By: jake

jake — Fri, 26 Oct 2018 09:01:52 +0000

I think we are on the same lines here Don. My gripe isn’t with the tackles themselves, its the lack of consistency in applying the laws. The comment on Kaino and Pointud wasnt aimed at criticising the players, but was more expressing my frustration that two tackles deemed to be red card worthy were only picked up and punished retrospectively. Whether you think Kaino should have been red carded or not, the law suggests he should have been but the referee didnt apply this thinking. If both cards had been issued Bath probably would have won, playing 13 men for a large part of the 2nd half.

By: jake

jake — Wed, 24 Oct 2018 21:34:09 +0000

I think shoulder to the head is considered a foul…don’t you Don? Well last summer he was carded for the ABs v the Lions and then also carded the next very game for the Blues…both for high hits. Kaino also himself stated he needed to address his tackle technique. So not so much bias as observation, but since we are on the topic how far would you go to defend the mighty ABs? Not sure anyone mentioned intent but I would imagine concussion would stop anyone.

By: Don P

Don P — Wed, 24 Oct 2018 20:49:05 +0000

Indeed Andy, but nevertheless, we’re getting too many bagels for putting in too much effort for posting here! Regrds.

By: Don P

Don P — Wed, 24 Oct 2018 20:39:30 +0000

Sure did!

By: Andy

Andy — Wed, 24 Oct 2018 18:24:11 +0000

Don’t think we disagree about much here Don. My view is that there have been a substantial number of changes made to the laws in the past few years without sufficient consideration of their accidental consequences or recognition of the fact that coaches will be hyper analysing them to find ways round them.

By: VJ

VJ — Wed, 24 Oct 2018 18:14:58 +0000

Andy had opened the door to the murky world of ‘player intent’, so I elaborated to cover more points and bases.

By: Don P

Don P — Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:49:28 +0000

VJ, seems like a long way of stating that C-D done good, tacker done bad. Surely the only ? is; ‘was C-D blocking the tackle/r or not’?

By: Don P

Don P — Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:36:53 +0000

Andy, it’s not in the too distant that the Irish were being complimented on their so called ‘choke’ tackle, via Les Kiss was it? Anyway, if the ‘stand up’ tackle is causing unsustainable head injuries, then it ought to be outlawed. However, it’s never usually down to 1 cause. IMO the changing of the ruck n tackle law is also responsible. As you state, ‘in the good old days’, when fwds were fwds & in rucks instead of clogging back lines, perhaps their being in the latter now, with bigger guys tackling smaller guys (also called backs) too is a significant cause of head injuries, especially in stand up tackles? Also, if players are getting head injured in ‘low’ tackles, then more emphasis on technique with use of the correct shoulder & positioning of the head should be enforced. And, bigger tacklers won’t necessarily go backwards when tackling. I’ve also posted here on law revision in respect of tackling, which may be of interest.

By: Don P

Don P — Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:14:33 +0000

Jake, was Kaino’s tackle illegal then? That is, standing upright to stop the man & the offload? Also, as you generally state that Kaino has always effected this type of tackle, but without stating actual actual occasions (probably near impossible, I know), is yr view not based on bias as well? Intent doesn’t count in this rugby law’s context, but why would Kaino need to deliberately concuss Roberts? He’d already stopped the guy. Seemed like an incidental head on chest clash to me, Kaino being taller. And my point is that a 5 week ban was disproportionate. Also, if it had been Billy V similarly tackling an opponent instead, would you have been quite so righteous in yr condemnation? You’re under oath now!

By: Don P

Don P — Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:53:16 +0000

Jake, agree about the inconsistency bit. However, I don’t see Kaino’s tackle as being a clear cut red. Didn’t see the Pointud’s incident, so can’t comment. Additionally & in part, similarly as with Cipriani’s ‘tackle’, Scannel, as a sideline commentator observed, ‘dipped’ into the tackle. Therefore & particularly, as Scannell wasn’t injured in the slightest, are ball carriers not also, or even more so, culpable by deliberately driving head down into tackles in the knowledge that they can do this with impunity & whereby the tackler cannot. I don’t always like or agree with some rules, but have also stated that they must be applied (if only for consistency). Therefore, my contention here about tackles may, on the surface @ least, seem contradictory. However, what I’m also advocating, is that the tackle law be reviewed to have a balanced, rather than a jaundiced application to it & where the onus for player welfare & fair play, is placed not ONLY on the tackler, but also the ‘tacklee’. Are you reading this Scannell? And BTW of course, Headlip’s skewed view that Munster were good (or even ‘great’ on occasion) & Gloucester weren’t, was tedious & hardly invoked my empathy with ‘his’ team. Yawn!

By: jake

jake — Wed, 24 Oct 2018 11:20:51 +0000

Disagree with Craig’s request to replay the match but its pretty farcical that Kaino and Pointud have both been retrospectively banned after clear, red card-worthy offences were missed by the officials. The inconsistency and lack of quality officiating is more frustrating than the clampdown on illegal hits.

By: jake

jake — Wed, 24 Oct 2018 11:15:50 +0000

Don – I will have to disagree with you here. Kaino could have gone lower and wrapped Roberts up, avoiding the collision to the head entirely. I can understand that he wanted to win the collision but imo it should have been a red for clear, direct contact to the head. In contrast to Cips, where there was little force in the contact, Kaino smashed Roberts who had to leave the field with concussion. I would also say that 5 weeks is fair given Kaino persists in committing these sort of offences; whether with the ABs, the Blues or with Toulouse he seems to persistently hit players high with this type of tackle.