78 thoughts on “Lions 2017 – A XV to start the First Test”

1. Wow where to start.

   So at least 4 players that you are picking on past performances (Wyn-Jones, SOB, Warbuton & North). “On their day they may be test match animals” but I am racking my brains to think back to the last time these players had stand out matches. Webb whilst a massive talent, does seem to lose it in crunch matches, Murray seems that bit more level headed and consistent to me. Liam Williams’ best matches have come at FB, so would rather have him there in place of the mercurial but defensively suspect Hogg (who would be a good bench option). Not a chance in hell Gats plays Ford/ Farrell, and Henshaw is behind, Scott Williams, JD2, Joseph, Daly, Bennett and some of the other Scottish centres IMO.

   1. Thanks Benjit – on the ‘not a chance in hell Gatland plays Ford/Farrell’, I wasn’t saying this is the team I think he will pick, just the one I would!

      And I thought Wyn Jones and Warburton had some good moments on the NZ tour over the summer – maybe not at their very best, but I also think their experience will be vital.

2. Agree somewhat with Benjit here. A lot of players chosen on form from a couple of years ago.

   Would change (at this moment in time):

   Props – Nel on bench, Cole to start. I like Cole’s work at the breakdown, assuming he doesn’t give away too may penalites (he seemed improved in Aus) and that will be crucial vs NZ

   Locks – just don’t see how Kruis can be left out. Immense in defence, a good carrier in attack, superb in the lineout and just doesn’t stop. Retallick and Whitelock are the heart of the Kiwi team and Itoje and Kruis are the only partnership that come close to matching them. Would also work in tandem with Hartley at the line out. AWJ was a brilliant player but his top games seem fewer and far between now. Whilst he is on a downwards trajectory, Itoje and Kruis are still on their way up

   Flankers – reckon this will be a big area of contention. For NZ, Cane is a good player but I don’t think a great one (A Savea has the potential to be great) and Kaino is vastly under-rated. SOB was great but hasn’t had a string of performances for some time now. Warburton isn’t even the best 7 in Wales and I struggle to think of the last time he had a dominant performance. Whoever is picked needs power and a huge engine. I like the idea of CJ Stander but if Haskell can keep up his form up then I might even be tempted to select him. But it’s also difficult to leave out Robshaw who was possibly England’s most important player in Aus. Not to mention Tipuric who could thrive behind a Lions pack and John Hardie who is excellent for Scotland. Or perhaps play Henderson at 6 for the extra line-out ability. Oh and Ross Moriarty is looking rather decent. Arggghhh

   BTW – this ‘you need a 7 to compete in NZ’ is jsut not true. Look at Aus who played 2, one of them possibly the best in the world, vs NZ and got thrashed. What you need are players who can all compete at the turnover, who ruck and counter-ruck with timing and power and who have the engine to keep up with the AB pace. If you don’t have those things, you could have McCaw playing at 7 and it won’t make a blind bit of difference.

   8 – Faletau to start over Vunipola. Difficult one but i like the idea of BV being given half an hour to cause havoc

   9 – no stand out candidates. Rhys Webb can be fantastic but as Benjit points out can also make mistakes under pressure. Ben Youngs is too slow in his getting to the breakdown and is decision making and too inaccurate in his passing for my liking. Murray probably the best imo

   10. Please no Biggar. And I can’t face watching Sexton whinge at the ref for the whole tour. Farrell is in the best form and his kicking is superb, both tactically and for points.

   12 / 13 – really difficult again. I like Henshaw, he has good hands and is powerful in defence and attack. I’d like to see him at 12 and Joseph at 13. The Aus tour showed that Jospeh can be a defensive lynchpin as well as dangerous in attack

   11 / 14 – Just aren’t sure about North but in fairness he does seem to pick his game up for Wales. But I think I’d select him because if he does hit his form then he is superb. I’m still not convinced by Watson’s defensive positioning. Williams is best at fullback. I like Tommy Seymour. But I think I’d go for Nowell. He’s good in defense, constantly looks for work in attack and is very difficult to put down – he gets teams on the front foot. Also he has a knack for forcing turnovers

   15. Between Hogg and Williams. Hogg is great but can make some big mistakes and is often too keen to go himself rather than looking for other options. So I think I’d start Williams who is brilliant in the air and put the wind up the ABs last time they played. Hogg would be a great bench option though.

   And I’d make Hartley captain. He was great at dealing with refs throught the 6 Nations and the Aus tour.

   1. Have to disagree on your Hogg vs Williams call. Excellent though Williams is, Hogg’s form is richer. Both players have made some big mistakes (William’s in Wales vs Springboks 2014…) but both have matured. Hogg has the complete skill set and is playing sublime rugby just now IMO. He should be the starting 15 (if the first test was tomorrow).

3. Without looking to biased, I would pick the England front 5. Cole is better around the park than Nel which will be vital against the AB’s, Kruis right now is playing a hell of a lot better than AWJ so I’d pick him.

   I would bring Faletau in at 6 though and play him with Vunipola. Between those two we just might have a chance of getting over the gain line consistently. We’ll need to secure front foot ball to score tries against the ABs.

   Can’t see past Murray at 9 – he has by far the best all round game. Webb is good, but as stated about he can fold in big games. I’d keep Youngs as a bench option as I much prefer his running threat.

   I wouldn’t change the midfield. Ford/Farrell just can’t be broken up, they’re pulling the strings brilliantly together. Henshaw is the perfect foil for them with his powerful running – great hands too.

   I’d swap Watson and WIlliams too. I like Watson, he’s such a threat. It’d be between Hogg and Williams that I’d be deciding – Hogg edges it at the moment, just.

   1. Faletau at 6 is an interesting idea Jacob. No reason why he couldn’t play there and his defence is brilliant.

      I was thinking Stander as I wanted some power at 6 but Faletau gives you that + his incredible consistency

      1. Stander was an 8 used at 6 by Ireland, so the Lions can do the same with Faletau. He has the complete skill set to play 6, so I don’t see why it would be a problem.

   2. I have mentioned before that Faletau and Billy V should be played together for the Lions. They can both switch between 6 and 8 depending on attacking or defending position. Billy played quite a bit at 6 for Sarries in his first season for them and he’s a better player for it.

4. Gatland’s XV
   Gethin Jenkins
   Ken Owens
   Samson Lee
   Luke Charteris
   Alun Wyn Jones
   Dan Lydiate
   Sam Warburton [c]
   Taulupe Faletau
   Rhys Webb
   Dan Biggar
   Jamie Roberts
   Jonathan Davies
   Hallam Amos
   George North
   Liam Williams

   With a bench made up of the other three countries because Gatland believes Wales have the best starting XV the world has ever seen but no strength in depth

   1. Perhaps a trifle cynical Leon?

      1. Aye i was feeling a bit facetious at time of posting

   2. Moriarty ahead of Lydiate, and Halfpenny in for Amos with Williams shuffling over. At least get the team selection right if you’re going to make a pointless post

5. Interesting selections here, I certainly agree with Pablito about the rucking, speed and power here is of the essence, so maybe Faletau at 6 may be a good idea, as long as he is given a few games to get used to the position.
   Also no-one seems to have mentioned Halfpenny, who is now back to full fitness and has kicked 18 out of 18 so far this season. Not to be overlooked methinks

   1. Can’t see where Ha’penny would fit in Chris

      He’s not as good on attack as Hogg or Williams. He’s no better under the high ball than either of them. His tackling is brave but often poor in technique, leading to injury and as for the kicking, he may be pretty consistent but so are Farrell / Biggar / Sexton

      I’d prefer to see Brown ahead of Halfpenny, seeing as penalty kicking is more than adequately taken care of elsewhere.

6. Good team and against the general consensus I think a Maro Itoje/AWJ second row would be a powerful call.

   I would have Cole over Nel. Nel runs out of steam in the pro12, let alone against NZ!

   Hopefully by next summer Ford and Farrell will have cut their umbilical cord and we can have a proper competition for the 10 shirt both for England and for the Lions. Sexton will have to find serious form over the coming year to have a look in. Finn Russell looks the real deal though.

   Which would allow us to play a proper inside centre. Matt Scott? Henry Slade?

   Halfpenny also is looking very sharp in a woefully misfiring Toulon side. Should have said yes to wasps.

   1. Cole gets subbed at the mid-60s mark, just like Nel would be if Scotland had a good enough TH on the bench. Nel only really runs out of steam from the mid-70s onwards, when he starts making mistakes. Regarding Russell, let’s hope that when he comes back from injury he re-discovers his form – I wouldn’t be surprised if such a serious injury prevented that from happening.

7. Surely Felatau has more to offer @ 8 than the 1 dimensional Vunipola & Halfpenny offers more than Williams @ f/back.

   Who is likely to cause Read more issues? Billy is too predictable with his preference for taking contact. This makes him easy to read (no pun). He can’t jump, or kick & his offloading AND passing(?!) are inferior. Felatau has the more rounded skills.

   Williams is a decent player alright, but is there a better 15 in the NH with his attacking & defensive skills than HP? Also he kicks like a seige gun… & accurately.

   It’s all relative of course. It seems to me that Gatland is trading off past memories. Wales have under performed in recent times, e.g., esp in the last 6N.

   For all his blather about having a good shot @ winning in NZ, how WG expect to do so? NZ are playing a ‘total’ brand now with tight fwds handling like 3/4’s. They reckon to score from anywhere when in possession & to stop the opposition from doing so with their aggressive envelopment & Bolt like speed off the mark.

   And a reminder form the past;

   ‘The Lions are the enemy & behind the ‘Kiaoras’ & smiling welcomes there will be a hard-bitten desire to see the best of British & Irish brought to their knees & given a thorough kicking (metaphorical, of course). The old adage for visiting international players is that until you get the recognition of the New Zealand public, you are an also-ran. The sense of All Black rugby superiority is ingrained & the idea that the 2017 Lions are something special will be eroded from the moment they set foot in the land of the long white cloud’. The Rugby Paper columnist Nick Cain 22/7/13

   Hope Gatters didn’t read this. Time’ll tell, but it’ll likely be an issue for him.

   1. Halfpenny is not a counter-attacking or even an attacking fullback. Great kicker for getting three points – a bit like Jonathan Webb or Simon Hodgkinson back in the late 80’s-early nineties for England.
      Has to be a fully-rounded fullback with all the weapons for the Lions (penalty-kicking from full-back not even being a pre-requisite with Ford and Farrell options at 10)
      Brown brown would even be a better option at 15 than halfpenny. Personally I wouldn’t even pick 0.5penny for Wales as williams is the better runner and gets them away from Gatball.
      On Faletau I would argue he ‘disappears’ in a lot of games. Is it lack of consistency or the result of having to play Gatball? VB provides consistency and down to the wire blood and guts every time.

      1. Halfpenny did a pretty good attacking job on the last Lions tour, didn’t he?

         1. ‘Pretty good’ ain’t good enough for this tour to NZ I fear. Let’s be honest – a natural counter-attacking 15 he is not! Hogg…yes, Brown….yes, Watson….yes, even Alex Goode….yes! This tour will NOT require a place-kicker at 15

         2. I would take Halfpenny if he is fit and firing. But I would still go with Hogg as 1st choice fullback, especially as long Farrell is in the team as the kicker. HP on the bench to cover fullback or wing.

      2. AlexD

         You’re obviously English & there4, from yr comments, suffer from jingoism. This is 1 of my gripes about rugby over here; myopia. You need to look outward, not inwards.

         H’penny used to play wing, so what’s the point of HIS having played there if he couldn’t ‘attack’?

         Brown WAS a better player a couple of yrs back, but has got sucked into the ltd ambition of English play; i.e. safety 1st, don’t play ‘high risk’ rugger, inw, passing the ball & straightening the attack occasionally for the wide men instead of dying with it by taking it into contact.

         And ‘blood and guts’ may have worked for General Patton in WWII, but do you think it’ll work for BV v the AB’s? Not likely brother.

         But g’luck if you think otherwise. Steve Hansen will be lapping up yr stuff if it reflects the Lions philosophy.

         1. Don. Not sure Alex was being Jingoistic. He has some fair points. HP has not played much at the moment so really needs game time. Though if he is fully fit I would take him as he is a very good player. Though as long as Farrell is playing, I would keep him on the bench as I feel Hogg offers more at full back. I would pick him ahead of Brown, who was the form FB a couple of years back, but is no longer.

            I am English and if we all admit it we probably look at our own players 1st and look at other teams to see if they have players that can improve your team. For instance I would love both Warbutton and North playing for England.

            That’s the hard part about picking a team. You not only need the best players, but you need the best fit of players. So sometimes for instance in past years when you could not have as many props, Props that could play both side would often go ahead of better players in the their preferred position.

            It will be interesting to see if Gatland goes for safe Welsh picks that he knows or pick the best team. I think he just wants to in his old back yard. So lets hope he picks the best team, no matter where they are from.

         2. Don – as Ben says below wasn’t being jingoistic at all. Revisit my post and please tell me what phrase was jingoistic.
            Ref your points:
            Yes, I’m English. I didn’t know that was a bad thing! (I’m sorry if that is the case with you)
            Yes I’m pleased england are on the ‘up’ and nothing wrong with that in world rugby.
            Questions of my own:
            1. Are you Kiwi by any chance?
            If so that would explain your remarks
            2. Halfpenny does not have the pace for a Lions 15 in my humble opinion. I have watched him probably as long as you if not longer on the international scene and there are FASTER players out there at 15. It doesn’t have to be Brown if you don’t LIKE him either (because he’s English maybe). Nor did my post advocate that BTW. Hogg is faster. Is he allowed? (He is a Scot which is maybe more to your liking!)
            On a separate point if I were in NZ or Australia I wouldn’t go around giving the locals beef about their nationality! A bit STRANGE really!

            1. AlexD

               Belatedly, yes.

            2. AlexD

               Again bealtedly, I have admired Brown btw, but I think he was more effective a couple of yrs back. Not nec his fault, but he’s less adventurous now for me & it may be due to either more cautious coaching or perhaps others have worked him out somewhat. I’d still have him as England’s No.1. He’s the most reliable under pressure I think.

               Scots are allowed of course (no skin off mine) & Hogg may be fast, but for me, 1/2penny is exp, doesn’t make (many) errors, esp under pressure, kicks like a mule & as prev stated, he has played wing & therefore, by definition, can’t exactly be a slouch… & he’s pretty elusive too?

               Unsure regds yr last pt abt ‘nationality beef’ though? Seemed you were pumping for the English somewhat in yr post? If you reckon not, then fair enough.

8. Ok: M Vunipola, Hartley, Cole, Kruis, Itoje, Stander, Warburton, Faletau, Murray, Farrell, North, Davies, Henshaw, Watson, Williams
   Reps: Nel, McGrath (to come on) Best, AWJ, B Vunipola (to come on for Stander with Faletau moving to 6), Webb, Joseph, Hogg

   1. And Webb

9. Its funny. From looking at social media it looks like the Kiwis are more interested in the Lions than the British and Irish are. I admit I used to love them but really got put off by the last tour and have little interest for the next one but I thought I was in a definite minority.

10. Can I throw a real curve ball in to the midfield mix. Duncan Taylor at 13 outside Ford and Farrell. A good ball carrier and defender with deceptive pace and power, but also has the skills to put in cheeky grubbers and chip kicks.

    1. oh you forget to mention he plays for Sarries in his redeeming features ;-)

11. It’s all totally up in the air, this far from the tour and especially this early in the season. I’m definitely biased as a Scot, but I think a couple of the Scottish guys aren’t getting a fair shake. I reckon it’d be criminal if Johnny Gray wasn’t picked for the tour. Dude’s an absolute warhorse. He doesn’t miss a tackle, for club or country, ever. He’s also had several years partnered with Nakarawa in the second row, which has been reflected in his ability to offload over the past few seasons. He’s a daylight robber in the lineout and was named captain at Glasgow at the age of 20. Also, while I do believe George North is the most dangerous winger in the Northern Hemisphere (on his day) I know that Tommy Seymour is a deadly finisher. And if there’s a better wing under the high ball, my team never played against him. Hogg should get picked, I dislike Williams but I respect how great he is and I think that one’s a toss up, though it’ll all depend on the form battle, which at this point, Hogg is winning. Outside chances I feel would be a good shout- Bennett, Dunbar, Russell. All high pressure players with something to bring to the table.

    1. Although I think Gray is excellent. Is he better than Lawes or Launchberry. Personally, I do not think so. Plus the 2 L’s won’t even be 1st choice. As they are both behind Krutoje and poss even AWJ. Locks is a position that is massively strong for Lions. Great for the Lions, not so for Gray.

12. Halfpenny is the best plce kicker the world has ever seen, has to be there unfortunately. I’d be fine with an english tight five. falateau has to be 8, his skillset is second to none. haskell and some welsh 7 in there, they’re the only nh team to produce strong jackelers. Webb is insatiable, so much better than any other nh 9( id take other welsh 9s before any other), , 10 will be anscombe, gatland wants it, and he’s playing out of his skin right now here first. 11 north 12 has no real contenders, maybe farrell. 13, whoever is best of S williams, JD2, joseph, henshaw, with 1/2p and williams to make the back 3 up.
    3 ffr to be the best scrummagers, henderson as lock cover, that energy, big billy v to destroy a tired defence, sexton to close a close game, G davies for impact and Hogg the same.
    english forwards and welsh backs, reminiscent of the 71 tour

    1. Gatland will need backs capable of attacking and scoring tries. Only thing about 0.5Penny is his lack of prowess on the attack (counter included). Great though he is (with the boot especially) IMO he is not suited to a starting position (could be in the squad though if WG was to pick on current form not sure Halfpenny would make it (that would be All Black selectorial policy for sure!) IMO it is a mistake to pick on past performance! They come and go (players that is – though they might return to form in time)
       Farrell or Sexton at 10 provides your kickers (with the addition of Ford as back up) Spoilt for choice really!

    2. Although I agree HP is an amazing place kicker. He is only slightly better than Farrell, who is also world class. I would take HP in the team though. But Hogg has to start, his speed and skill in the high ball would be the kind of pace that would scare NZ.

       10 won’t be Anscombe. It will either be Ford or Sexton (To Start), with Farrell covering from 12 and kicking. I think there will be a few English backs especially with Watson one of the form wings in the world.

       The Faletau /Vunipola question is a good one. I personally think they both offer something different. I would not say no Faletau starting with Billy off the bench. That would scare any team even NZ.

       Thing is there are multiple permutations. Its good for Gatland that he has options. Unlike 12 years ago, we have a chance to beat NZ in a series. But we need the right balance of pace and power, plus some time for that to gel.

       1. Ben Huxtable-Smith

          A ? 4 u.

          Why are u only discussing the ‘WC’ Farrell (he’s continuously touted as a 10) in terms of his goal kicking when u ought to compare his play with that of say, Beauden Barrett, who scores TRIES 4 fun. OF doesn’t.

          Tries are worth 7 (usually) penalties 3, conversions 2.

          Surely the Lions will need more than ltd goal kickers like OF, JS or even GF!? Anscombe? Shouldn’t he be trying out for the AB’s?

          Regds Felatau or BV scaring NZ, u don’t watch enough SH rugger. The AB’s will likely respect whomever they play, but why would they be frightened of anyone at present?

          They’re back to back WC winners for the 1st time in this tournament & the most successful team in the history of sport.

          This is not an accident. Their style of play with tight fwds handling & straightening like backs combined with a bullet, suffocating defence to a gr* extent render opposition individuals somewhat diminished.

          Turn the telescope around.

          1. I don’t think I said they would not respect them. You are probably right they won’t fear them, but they will know what they can do to them.

             Don. You do seem to be very attritional in your views. We are all allowed our opinions, as you are with yours. I think it will be an extremely hard tour and the NZ are clear favourites. But the Lions at full strength will be a good match-up for them.

             I would also say that anyone that calls Farrell one dimensional has not been watching him of late. He has improved all aspects of him game. He is not an attacking FH like Dan Carter, but then not many are.

             I do not need a telescope, but I would say you need some pills to calm yourself down ;)

13. Some very interesting points above.

    My Team would as follows.
    1. M Vunipola
    2. D Hartley (C)
    3. WP Nel
    4. G Kruis
    5. M Itoje
    6. T Faletau
    7. S Warburton (Will be be between him and Haskell to start)
    8. B Vunipola
    9. C Murray
    10. G Ford
    11. G North
    12. O Farrell
    13. R Henshaw
    14. A Watson
    15. S Hogg
    16. J George
    17. J Mcgrath
    18. D Cole
    19. J Launchberry
    20. J Tipuric
    21. B Youngs
    22. J Joseph
    23. J Nowell

    That’s my team and it does seem a bit English heavy. But it does have all nations in it. I still think people like Nathan Hughes could yet come into the reckoning and I do not like the fact I have left out Robshaw as he is such a workhorse for any team. But the thought of playing Faletau and Vunipola together would frighten any team even NZ.

    I agree with some who are worried about North. Sometimes he looks sublime and other times, you wonder where he has gone. I do worry he has had a few too many knocks to the head. But just for the sheer force he has to be in the team.

    I would also make Hartey captain and leave Warburton to do what he does best i.e. be an excellent 7. I sometimes feel captaincy gets on top of him. Whereas it seems to focus the best parts of Hartley. I also cannot split the Krutoje Partnership. I have left out AWJ (Though would be in my touring squad) of the team as I think Launchberry provides more impact off the bench?

    Someone who might make a late run (if he can stay fit) is Tuilagi. Again, ask yourself as an NZ supporter, who would you least like to see against me. A fit and firing Tuilagi is one of those.

    1. Good selection. I would only take Tuilagi if he finds a strong vein of form. The curse of so many Lions teams in the past was picking injured or out of form players ‘hoping’ they would recover/rediscover form. Gatland can’t afford to do that and I’m sure he won’t. Unlike in the past he has the players to do it on form alone (especially now that the north-south divide has narrowed!) and blest with, it has to said, the fruits of Jones English squad mentally re-invigorated from down under!

       1. Alex. I completely agree about Tuilagi. Hence me saying about him having a good run. Like it or not, if England is strong then usually the Lions are also strong. When we went down to NZ last time all the best England players had either retired or were near the end. Look what happened.

          I am however encouraged by recent showings from all the home nations. We have strength in every position. The fact two or more out of the Gray’s, Lawes, Launchberry, Charteris, Toner won’t be touring just shows the world class talent there is at lock.

          England’s win over Aus and Ireland’s near miss over SA prove the gap to the southern hemisphere has narrowed. But NZ still has a gap to the rest. So the Lions are going to have to all the players fit and firing and a bit luck to win the series.

          Should be a good one though ;)

          1. … need to be capable of…

    2. SJ of the ST picks a similar team, certainly in the fwds, although he’s gone for a total 34, being the squad.

       He omits Robshw, also Ford, Sexton @ fly1/2.

       Joseph @ centre, I think.

       Not so sure that Felatau, BV will be effective as the former wasn’t all that on his last tour & NZ have mostly been effective with tanks before, e.g. SA, Argentina. Unpredictability is required.

       And this applies to Tui as well. Fekitoa, Crotty are no Lilliputians.

       Still plenty players, but will they hang on to the ball & take it through the guts &/or out wide, which I believe they be capable of, to outscore (i.e. with tries) NZ, as they will surely need to do so if the last Argentina game was anything to go by?

       Only time will tell I guess.

       1. On form at the moment I think Ford has to def be on the tour and I would currently have him above Sexton. I like his partnership with Farrell for England as well and this I feel would work well for the Lions.

          I too am not a 100% sure on Faletau and Vunipola together and would ponder having Robshaw at 6 due to his work rate. The next 6 nations will go the furthest in to which players are picked along with this autumns internationals.

          If Tui is fit and firing then he goes. If he is not a 100% he stays at home.

          1. Ben Huxtable-Smith

             Been having trouble accessing this site over past few day?

             Anyway, current form is club based, as no Super Rugby here.

             Therefore the Lions will need more than simply form to breach NZ’s ‘D’. Ford, Farrell simply don’t score tries @ International level & that’s what they’ll need to do on tour; as well as distribute, kick (if absolutely nec) & defend. These abilities (mostly) will apply to the whole team of course.

             The Lions will surely need to dev a wider strategy, or all round game, to compete, esp so as they’ll be away from home.

14. Ben – very balanced and reasonable comments as always!
    Absolutely the AB’s are the better team (hope Don is reading this!). That’s not to say the Lions can’t beat them on their day!
    That’s sport for you folks and hence the fascination! One can be knocked off the perch very quickly and that is what a lot of rugby fans (irrespective of bloody nationality) would love to see! The old Rumble in the Jungle or Rope a Dope when the ‘favourite’ was expected to win but didn’t! A changing of the guard and the rugby world order.
    IMO Williams or Hogg would be better alternatives at FB to HPenny! (Hope Don’s reading this!)
    Bring it on and may the best team win.
    Oops did I really admit to being English on here?
    I must be stark staring mad not to abide with political correctness and keep it quiet. My own nationality – English – what next?

    1. Alex – I really wouldn’t worry about Don. He’s been the resident All Black cheerleader for some time on this site.

       Most of us don’t bother engaging him with discussion about the All Blacks as he does the on-line equivalent of sticking his fingers in his ears and shouting ‘I can’t hear you’.

       Suffice to say that in Don’s star-struck eyes, the All Blacks can never do wrong and never be found wanting…

       1. Pablito

          I’m sure Alex can look after himself.

          And you’re being defensive, although it’s good of you to engage with me. Appreciated I’m sure.

          Don’t we have a cart before horse scenario regds yr stating that I’ve ‘been resident All Black cheerleader’? This surely, is to miss the point, which, with everyone concentrating on the individual parts in the composition of the Lions team, is to ignore HOW they intend to beat NZ – away.

          Where are they going to do so? @ scrum, line out, breakdown? And are they going to run, kick or pass? How will they counter the AB ‘D’?

          Shouldn’t the means of beating the AB’s dictate how the team is picked so that they can attempt to effect a pattern of play to do so.

          That ain’t going to be easy. Not least because NZ have improved on how THEY play their game since the WC & left other nations behind IMO & which I’ve pointed out.

          My ‘cheer leading’ surely highlights yr, or the Lions’, problem, which you seem to ignore by assuming that by picking the team, will somehow fix this issue of how to beat NZ.

          Or have I stated something erroneous?

       2. Pablito

          Srry Pab, I didn’t quite catch yr response.

    2. Alex. I thought you realised that you are not allowed to be a proud Englishman on any forum ;) It is just not done hahaha. I would like to say that I am also a proud Brit and when we play as one, I want all members no matter what corner they come from to perform to their best and make the Lions Great.

       I massively respect the all blacks. Any team with an 80% plus win percentage should be revered. However, every team should aspire to be as good and to have no fear to beat them. That’s how the England team of the early noughties conquered all.

       1. Ben Huxtable-Smith

          Ben you can be as proud as you like, no prob, but as Lancaster found, it takes a bit more than that doesn’t it?

          1. Don. My feelings have nothing to do with how the Lion’s will perform. But pride in the shirt does have an affect. Just ask the Kiwi’s. They are proud to play for the fern. Obviously, it takes a lot more than that, but it is one part of it.

             As Eddie Jones has shown, great coaching is also very important, as is selecting the right person in the correct position. Also good players and that is where Jones has been lucky in that a lot of good young players are starting to mature into good test match players.

          2. Yes but Jones is having no problem is he? It’s one in the eye (or three should I say?) for the Aussies on home soil – or perhaps there’s some mitigating bloody factor like novovirus or too tight jock straps or something this time round to cancel out the legitimacy of the English victories!!!!!!!!!!
             One thing the English are good at is co-opting the personnel of other nations (eg. Jones) and having the open-mindedness and audacity to say sort us out mate! (emphasis on ‘mate’ as he’s Aussie) if it’s evidence of anything it’s that the English are NOT racist otherwise they wouldna chosen Jones or Capello or Sven) Besides we’re too busy bending over backwards to placate people all the time (minorities included) we do ‘t have time to be racist let alone conquer them! Last official conquering was in Victorian times to be accurate! Don’t anyone dare be so bloody ignorant as to say “ah but WW1 and 2 and the Falklands!” either!

             I give up sometimes with A. The guff and B. The sheer Anti-English bigotry masquerading beneath the banner of safe PC ‘acceptability’!
             I thought this was a blog for men not boys for chrissakes!

             1. AlexD

                Presumably aimed @ me?

                See my comments regds Norovirus via Hansen. I?ed it @ the time, 2013, as not being an ‘authentic English win, because I didn’t think England were that good. Nor did Hansen from his comment.

                England then lost to SA, Oz (?) & to wales by 30ish & subsequent events up to the last WC surely vindicate my point @ least to a fair extent

                That’s all.

                DON’T RECALL JOCK STRAPS THOUGH!?

    3. AlexD
       Yeah, I did Alex.

       Regds, ‘That’s not to say the Lions can’t beat them on their day!’, well they can, but I’m more interested in how?

       Picking a team is 1 thing, as Woodward found out in 2003 (a good Lions team on paper I thought) & if the Lions play the way Gatland has Wales playing, then surely they’ll struggle.

       If the Lions can cut off NZ ball @ scrum, l/out & particularly the br’down, then the ABs will struggle. Unless the Lions can do this however, then, away from home, the’ll surely find it tough going, esp as they’ll have little prep time for a challenging schedule.

       Pab (& others?) state that I’m ‘cheer leading’ for the AB’s, but surely I ask a legit ?.

       Being a Kiwi I’m bound to have a diff take on things which is that (not you personally, as you seem a decent enough type), I often perceive the English supporters, media, coaches (e.g. EJ stating that he’s perceived significant AB weaknesses, but doesn’t state what they are & as he’s not facing then for a yr, to me he comes over as a bit of a blagger on this topic) & some players as talking it up too much BEFORE they’ve done anything of real significance.

       I also look outside of the subject, i.e., the picking of the Lions team, hence my original ? & take on this (which too seems to raise some hackles). It interests me more & ought it not to pose the same ? for you & other Lions supporters?

       If someone can come up with some constructive answers as to the ‘how’ ?, then I’m all ‘ears’ (reading this Pab?)

       That’s my take on it anyway.

       Regds

       1. Don. The way the Lions could beat the All Blacks is the same as how England beat them in 2013. Play with high intensity and if they manage to get on top make sure you stay on top and do not let them back in the game.

          Yes I am a Lions supporter, but I also realise the AB’s are an amazing team. Any team that can lose players like McCaw and Carter and still trounce all before them is an exceptional one.

          But if the Lions play them, like they are playing the best team then they will lose. They have to believe they are at least their equals and that they have areas in which they are stronger. I do feel one are could well be the pack. However, if we let the AB’s run at us then I think we could get pummelled. That is why selection and game plans are so essential.

          We cannot play like the AB’s, we will have to play like the Lions. That’s one of the reasons we lost in 2005. Woodward tried to get the rest of home unions to play the England way and it did not work. Also a lot of the 2003 WC winning side had retired and others were over the hill. Plus the AB’s were just a better team. That’s what will win in 2017 e.g. the Best Team.

          1. Yeah I know, but to put this into another perspective, ‘England beat them in 2013’ (in NZ), h’ever they kept pulling their scrum down, which is why they were reduced to 13 & Soialo went for a try when the kick pen, in front, Sshould have won the game. They didn’t & that’s history. Winners are grinners & all that.

             @ Twic NZ kicked off with 2 current AB’s, Umanga & Howlett (I think it was), in their team & although they lost, it was marginal & they still outscored England 4 to 3.

             So this getting on top via the pack is a dubious distinction for me & it limited their points tally.

             Have the current AB’s been dominated @ scrum? All they need do is hold their own, so unless the Lions do dominate big time here & it’s only part of the game, they’ll surely find themselves up against it. The Lions will need to dominate @ l/out & breakdown also. On current & say, past 8 yrs form, is this likely?

             Doesn’t mean it won’t happen, but don’t (solid) past performances predict future results?

             ‘We cannot play like the AB’s, we will have to play like the Lions.’ Well, in 71 & 74 the Lions played like the Lions; i.e. with all court games.

             The only reason the Lions ‘cannot play like the AB’s’ is because they don’t have the self belief that they can do so. Yr reasoning seems to limit their options.

             It’s a simple game. When in possession, you should look to score tries (they’re worth more pts) by either running, passing or (if accurate… & nec), kicking to reap possession back again, across the whole team. If a team can’t do these basic things, then they need to practice them until they can.

             When not in possession, stop the oppo from scoring with rapidly deployed & thinking ‘D’ (when to enter rucks, or not, whether to deploy l or r etc).

             The age thing? As SL pointed out the AB’s had 9 over 30 in their squad. I think age is relative.

             i think the old, ltd philosophy (as per Sarries last Sat), is ok in the NH club game, but it leaves you open to no alt plan internationally if you’re held up front.

             That’s how I see it… even if it seems like ‘cheer leading’.

             1. Don.

                I take it you mean Eng’s 2003 win? The 2013 one was in England, when NZ said they did not feel to well ;)

                You make some fair points. I do also think we will have the edge in the lineouts (with the Krutoje Partnership). I think NZ’s all court game is the best in the world. But we will have to compete here or we will lose.

                The game of rugby is not about how many tries, but how many points you win by. If we win with no tries I will be happy about that. Teams will obviously play to their strengths and scoring system.

                I do however, think tries make a better game and maybe penalties should be reduced to 2 points and I think conversions could come down to 1 point and maybe the try being worth 6. This would mean even an unconverted try would be worth the same as 3 penalties.Mind you this would only help teams like NZ and they do need anymore help hahaha.

                I agree age is relative … to an extent. But when you are clearly passed it then age is a thing ;) I think too many people that should have retired at the world cup and instead went on for another Lions tour. When maybe 2003 was their Nadir.

                Don I have no problems with people cheer leading their teams. For instance I think England at the moment are finally showing the form that should have been their at our own world cup. Especially when you consider our large playing base. However, NZ have been and prob will be for some time to come the team to aspire too.

                1. Ben Huxtable-Smith

                   2003, yes. In 2013 Hansen said the Norvirus ‘might have had something to do with it’ (their loss).

                   Yet to be seen how Kruis & Itoje go, if selected of course, v NZ. Whitelock & Retallick are seasoned AB’s & their line out is currently functioning fine in the RC.

                   Surely tries = (more) points and are more likely to to determine ‘how many points you win by’. Therefore, why limit yr game to pens as the main means of scoring points?

                   Yr new points system has some merit. It would make teams play more rugby. Good to watch & would be effective methinks.

                   Can’t pick isolated e.g.’s I know, but Brad Thorne was 34 in the prev WC. And as already mentioned prev, NZ had 9 over 30 in the last 1. Agree comes a point though when time catches up. The trick, IMO, is NOT to ‘transition’, but to ‘blood’ newer players as part of a continuous process. Teams need bigger squads anyway these days due to attrition, injuries etc, so these ‘rookies’ can slot in when appropriate. Makes them (& their team) more effective. Therefore they should get regular game time.

                   I don’t intentionally go out to ‘cheer’ the AB’s. Unnecessary due to record. However, I find it almost incredulous sometimes when it’s plain to see something seemingly working well, why not analyse why this is & go out & do it better. Easier said than done, I know, but surely the only thing stopping this being done is will, or beliefs people hold. It’s not even a ? of emulating NZ, or anyone else for that matter, but more one of being practical.

                   I.e., when in possession work out how to score points from wherever you are on the field, if appropriate of course (sometimes it won’t be viable), & how to stop the opposition from doing the same when you are not in possession.

                   Simple really… in theory.

                   Who stated that I was attritional?

                   1. Someone might have said it and I cannot imagine why ;)

                      I think Jones will copy certain aspects from the AB’s. But the big difference as you may know is that the AB’s are pretty much given a rugby ball as soon as they come out of the womb. Its a bit different in most countries as Rugby is not always the national sport and has to compete with others.

                      Hence a lot of the ball handling skills are not always as good as they are in NZ. So I think that is why Jones has stated he will work with England to bring out the best of what we are good i.e. forward play. I am sure he will look to improve the attacking play at a later date and I think it already is improving.

                      Wales tried to match the AB’s recently and still got pummelled, though I know they were respected and rightly so for giving it a go.

                      So although you are not incorrect, you do also need to bring your strengths 1st and foremost before you try to emulate others. You cannot go from losing in the 1st round of the world cup to AB beaters overnight ;)

       2. Very balanced blog Don. Nicely restrained and to the point!
          English football fans talk it up. Have done since 1966! Not sure I agree with you over the rugby boys though. If anything they’ve been more restrained in the Lancaster/Johnson/Robinson era. Overly hopeful verging on unrealistic maybe!
          The way to beat the ABs is pretty much as you’ve described it. Possession rugby, starving the opposition in the set pieces, stuffing it up the jumper and using physicality (Krutoje/Haskell and BV in particular) if they are hopefully chosen. I guess they would do the same for England!
          English players especially have had ‘something’ special under Jones whatever it is! Could be eating three weetabix at breakfast for all I care. (Traditional English sarcasm rather than jingoism here – and yes there is such a thing b4 anyone asks) Christ prefacing everything so as not to OFFEND nowadays is a pain in the arse! Just an aside!

          1. Prob thinking more of some like SJ of the S Times, who seems to drag the game he lives off through the mud by sooner or later slagging everyone off & by contradicting himself (e.g. 1 min pushing ‘gnarled vets’, then ‘callow yoof’, like, @ the time, DC & CL), presumably to seek attention & to influence… whom? But then he works for Murdoch,in a ‘lying profession’… according to his own paper.

             Also Greenwood, Doyle, Quinnell, Flatman seem somewhat theatrical, often using a 1000 words when 1 would do, or iow, having no off switches.

             Maybe it’s a matter of style… or lack of?

15. Actually my cultural DNA is 0.25 Scot, 0.25 Irish and 0.50 English. To those north of the border I’m a Sassenach (a sort of Scot!) You have to plumb for whichever parts the biggest….right? Means that you can support Scotland against the Aussies though!
    Sorry to Don for having not one drop of Welsh! Not a lot I can do about it though unless of course I went to A&E and had a blood transfusion (would have to be from a donor called Daffyd Jones though!

    1. Alex, I’m sure you’re going to be gutted to hear this, but there is in fact very little DNA in blood. To be in any way worthy, it’s going to have to be an organ transplant I’m afraid. How about – a Welsh heart…..

       1. Or a Welsh liver so you can still abuse something Welsh ;-)

    2. AlexD

       Taht’s ok Alex… I’m not Welsh, cobber.

       1. I know you’re not Welsh! You just support them whilst a Kiwi. Am I right?

          1. Not too often. Some can get a bit uppity from my experiences of bussing to Cardiff & back via L. Welsh to see NZ v Wales.

             Grateful I wasn’t on the losing side in those days.

16. Only if their was a quid pro quo with Don. I’d take a Welsh heart and he took an English one. Enlightenment would soon follow and a near Zen state of 100% rugby karma might ensue. The pilot scheme (compulsory organ transplantation that is) could be unfurled worldwide across all bigoted anti-English countries – sadly including Wales, New Zealand (if Don is a proud Kiwi that is as he hasn’t answered my questions) and Scotland a lot of the time!

17. Alex

    The English have never been bigoted once….ever.

    They are well behaved and a delight to meet espec whe consuming alcohol on their holidays or sports trips abroad.

    Historically they have never invaded another country and never conquered and asset stripped other people’s resources for their own gain. They respect the culture and languages of other nations and do their best to use engage foreign nations in their native tongue. For example using French in France, Spanish in Spain and Italian when in Italy.

    The English never so much as harmed a hair on the head of another person from another country ever.

    They are as white as the driven snow and as pure as the Virgin Mary

    The English are of course victims across history’s pages and have been for hundreds of years.

    1. Y Ddraig

       You forgot to state that England never claim a legit victory over the AB’s when the latter have a Norovirus! Ha, ha.

       Blimey, had more verbal excrement poured down on me head than from a Metellica concert when I stated this… led by, of all people (sorry), a Welshman, Brighty (who seems to have disappeared up his own orifice along with his narrative these days?), to boot (so to speak).

       Ah well, can’t please all the people… etc.

       Regds.

       1. ‘Metallica’ I think. Never listened to them! Load of shite but that’s how you spell it anyway FYI

          1. Indeed it is.Typo.

    2. Don’t think so! Re-read your own blog, listen to it’s tone and you’re probably looking at him!
       Anyway back to some of your points.
       ‘When in Rome I certainly do do as the Romans’ (Do you? I hope so)I happen to speak fluent Spanish, have an aunt married to a Spaniard and have had both Spanish and Columbian girlfriends. I love other people’s cultures so you’re on a losing wicket there (excuse the sporting pun)!
       Try not to tar everyone with the same brush – just a tip!
       Any of my past comments have been people specific (in response to individual bloggers and their comments) You stand and fall by them! It’s called honesty, balance and being an adult?
       As far as invading to there countries the Welsh have helped the ‘English’ (whatever the latter means as we tend not to get so worked up) in battle since Crecy. That’s 1346 for your info!!!!!!!!!!!!!
       What a load of drivel.
       Some of the best regiments and most loyal remain Scottish! Don’t start me on that one as my family is military and I have done TA service with the HAC in London.
       Looking forward to further bigoted comments that will be met in the same responsive vein!

    3. Y Draig it’s about dealing with things on a point by point basis and treating people as individuals rather than part of a lumpen mass. Your comments are proof if any were needed that when you suspect someone of being English (same might go for others on here) there is a knee jerk reaction that expressing unreasonable comments! It says nothing about the person on the receiving end of your diatribe but a lot about the person saying it! Can’t put it more politely, reasonably nor calmly than that!
       (Further comment next but one down also relevant to this answer – I didn’t post it in the correct ‘reply’ position – apologies)

    4. Y Draig.

       This is a bit of a silly comment and is the kind of thing that incites arguments. Surely the most important thing is the game of rugby?

       If Wales beat England then I congratulate them for it. Doesn’t mean I have to be happy about it ;)

       Yes the English and to be more truthful the British conquered a lot of the world and probably not in the nicest of ways. But we are talking a long time ago. It is about time we moved on from comments like that.

18. Ben Huxtable-Smith

    Well it’s true enough that rugger is NZ’s national sport.

    I even recall playing it as a ‘midget’, although on 1 occasion both teams stopped playing to howl with laughter when a kid’s shorts accidentally got pulled down in a ‘tackle’ to expose his bottom (a wardrobe malfunction I think it’s now called).

    He nearly scored unopposed til someone woke up to catch him just before the try line (me!). My only claim to fame. I was pretty nippy.

    My point here is that we still had to be trained once out of the womb like anyone else as to how the game needed to be played & what the priorities were.

    Also NZ wasn’t always an all round team. They have evolved to where they are now. Previously they were more fwd orientated & battled to stay on a par with Boks til 96 when they won their 1st series away over there, having realised a wider style.

    IMO pro rugby helped them do this as they & the rest of the SH, embraced the concept & later restructured the game to incorporate S Rugby, which seemed pivotal in the game’s development. Also the Unions controlled the sport, top to bottom, which lent itself to a cohesive style of play throughout; in NZ anyway.

    BTW in S Rugby, players run c.187 meters / game v 160 in test rugger (acc to Ben Darwin, former Oz prop, now analyst). This apparently means they stay thinking for longer, under greater pressure. This makes sense to me & it’s another ingredient unavailable to the NH & an advantage to the SH.

    Nevertheless England has more players, facilities, dosh etc than an other nation.

    If England/the Lions CAN dominate NZ by say 70/30 up front, they may be in business. Unless this happens though & they’re held up front, then their so called traditional fwd strength will instead become a potential weakness.

    And Steve Hansen & crew will surely be aware of this.

    That’s how I see it anyway.

    Regds.

19. As a horribly biased scotland fan

    McGrath
    Hartley
    Nel
    Itoje
    Kruis
    Robshaw
    Hardie
    B Vunipola
    Webb
    Farrell
    North
    Henshaw
    Joseph
    Seymour
    Hogg

    George
    M Vunipola
    Cole
    Henderson
    Moriarty
    Murray
    Anscombe
    Watson

    breaks my heart to not put jonny gray in there but I’d want him to start and I cant think of a reason to spilt up kruis and itoje

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