Warren Gatland has named his side to take on New Zealand in the 2nd Test.
British & Irish Lions (v New Zealand, 2nd Test, Saturday, July 1, 7.35pm NZST, 8.35am BST)
15. Liam Williams – Scarlets, Wales, #833
14. Anthony Watson – Bath Rugby, England, #816
13. Jonathan Davies – Scarlets, Wales, #778
12. Owen Farrell – Saracens, England, #780
11. Elliot Daly – Wasps, England, #822
10. Johnny Sexton – Leinster, Ireland, #791
9. Conor Murray – Munster, Ireland, #790
1. Mako Vunipola – Saracens, England, #787
2. Jamie George – Saracens, England, #819
3. Tadhg Furlong – Leinster, Ireland, #818
4. Maro Itoje – Saracens, England, #825
5. Alun Wyn Jones – Ospreys, Wales, #761
6. Sam Warburton (capt) – Cardiff Blues, Wales, #800
7. Sean O’Brien – Leinster, Ireland, #796
8. Taulupe Faletau – Bath Rugby, Wales, #779
Replacements
16. Ken Owens – Scarlets, Wales, #829
17. Jack McGrath – Leinster, Ireland, #827
18. Kyle Sinckler – Harlequins, England, #814
19. Courtney Lawes – Northampton Saints, England, #826
20. CJ Stander – Munster, Ireland, #831
21. Rhys Webb – Ospreys, Wales, #820
22. Ben Te’o – Worcester Warriors, England, #815
23. Jack Nowell – Exeter Chiefs, England, #828
What do you think of this team? Can they win in Wellington?
Interesting considering how great T’eo was last week but I think he can become a really good impact player of the bench. Will Sexton and Farrell work together, I don’t know. But it’s a nice balance of flair, power and raw speed. I don’t know why Alan Wyn Jones is on tour. I’ll be surprised if he isn’t injured,
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I did suggest in another thread the only potential venue change was Faz/Sexton but am surprised he’s done it.
Surely AWJ has got done dirt on Gats and he’s blackmailing him…
In think there’s a positive risk/reward in the change at 10 (what’s to lose when we got well beat last week?) but that is somewhat negated by AWJ’s continued presence; at least Warbs helped the coach out by throwing him a bone a couple l week’s ago by saying “I’m not playing well enough for a test starting berth”.
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Silly comment from an England supporter. There’s a need for a touch of objectivity; sometimes your own players are not by definition the best!
I admit I would have preferred to see henderson in there for this one, pairing up with either of the two chosen locks.
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Silly comment from an Wales supporter. There’s a need for a touch of objectivity (instead of hypocrisy); sometimes your own players are not by definition the best! (even if once upon a time they may have been)
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Leon, if you think it is hypocritical to support our Lions team, then we’ve reached the end of the Lions as a concept. What I mean by objectivity is the ability to see beyond the end of your own prejudices. Those who think Gatland would deliberately select a player who he thought was less good than others are simply daft; arrogant, too, for thinking they honestly know more about these players – and the game – than the coaching team. I certainly don’t agree with every aspect of this selection – the lock pairing (I wanted henderson in there) or the Sexton/Farrell 10/12 axis; but I don’t like the knee-jerk sniping at a great player, which AWJ still is. I think we need to get behind the team now.
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AWJ is not a great player any more, he is showing that the tank is very neatly empty.
The criticism that is coming his way, and Gatlands way based on his blind loyalty is very much justified and is exactly because we want to see the Lions win that those points are being made. Not negatively.
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Nope I think it is hypocritical to call other people biased when you are by far the most biased commenter on this blog
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Don P is going to be really upset by that comment Leon.
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Andy
Outraged!
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Leon
But what about me?!
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Most of what you say is true Don. You just have an unfortunate way of expressing it
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Leon
See if I can clean up my act a bit then.
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Gosh Leon, can I take that as a compliment?!
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Jones still in? Te’o dropped to accomadate Sexton who did nothing to.warrant starting?
Yep, Garland is truly showing his limitations as a coach.
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Players out – Kruis didn’t have great game last week so far enough, Teo was very quiet in attack, but had a real hand in keeping SBW quiet, so arguable. O’Mahoney had a decent game but we got beaten at the breakdown so once again possibly fair.
Players coming in. Warburton hopefully will shore up the breakdown. Sexton and Farrell together will supposedly help the attack. Itoje will bring more dynamism, so good call.
Problems. How has AWJ kept his place? Looked poor last week. Should have been replaced. Who will stop SBW. Not sure the Sexton/Farrell axis particularly worked last week. Can we scrummage?
Ultimately if we win up front much of the game will follow. If we get beaten up front, probably another easy win for the ABs.
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I can understand Kruis not starting, he didn’t have his best game. But even at 80% effectiveness he was miles ahead of Jones.
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Also Kruis is the line-out caller. Not sure who will do that this week?
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I thought that was one of the main reasons for Kruis being in the starting squad, for his lineout work!! Especially with George at hooker?
As Jeremy said even though Kruis didn’t have his best game he was still way better than Jones!!!! Obviously Gatland is still holding out hope that Jones will play a blinder some time before the end of the tour.
Personally I think this call could be the downfall of this team. Itoje in is the right call, but not at Kruis’ expense. The two of them work better together, and without Kruis calling the lineouts and no O’Mahony, who was so good in the lineout last week, our lineout looks weak.
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Same problem down the social club last week, “Nelly numbers ” was ill so Dai dull the committee boy had to call bingo, awful it was .
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Jeremy, sorry, but that is just not true. Have another look, a close one, and take off those rose-tinted (or Rose-biased!¬) specs.
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You are very quick to throw the bias accusation around but never seem to take the time to examine your own bias.
Seeing as you are the only person standing up for AWJ performance and everyone else including many Welsh, Scottish and Irish supporters agree that on form AWJ has been the worst lock on tour it would suggest that you are the one lacking objectivity
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Not just Lions supporters. Pretty much every nationality vaguely interested in rugby thinks AWJ has been the worst lock on tour
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Leon, “the only person standing up for AWJ performance”? Could I just mention Warren Gatland, Andy Farrell, Graham Rowntree, Steve Borthwick……… All of these and more are right behind AWJ, as well as all the other Lions. These guys could – just conceivably – have better insight and knowledge than you and tyhe other self-appointed ‘nexperts’ on this site. So poor. Let’s get behind them.
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You are inferring Farrell, Rowntree and Borthwicks support by his selection but it is Gatland who picks the team.
Yes Gatland has far more insight and knowledge than us armchair pundits yet he still bottles key decisions time and again despite it being obvious to us mere mortals (why else would Cuthbert have as many caps as he does)
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Leon, you are factually wrong about that. Gatland will have what we call a ‘casting vote’, but the selection process is very much a team effort.
You’re right that Cuthbert has been lucky to get some of his caps, because he did seriously lose form. But he was also a magnificent wing (e.g. SA in 2012, England 2013) and a superb finisher.
I think all coaches inevitably make errors (EJ probably willl one day!) but it is wrong-headed to think that they want anything other than success. The selectors are going to pick the strongest team they believe they possibly can.
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Of course he will pick a team he thinks will be successful but doesn’t mean he won’t make mistakes and pick players who are out of form or less suited to the style of game the opposition will bring.
As many have pointed out before AWJ has had a poor tour to date and despite your ongoing belief in his ability to turn that around a deliver a barnstorming performance as he would have 2-3 years ago the evidence suggest otherwise. Hopefully come Sunday I will be eating humble pie as AWJ will have roll back the years but if the boot is on the other foot come test 3 I expect you will still be shouting about how good he is and how we armchair pundits know nothing
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Leon, the word is ‘implying’ – inferring means something slightly different. Take your point though.
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If he does replace North it should be Earls, Zebo or Tim Visser. If he does replace Henshaw then Roberts is probably the realistic candidate
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Taliesin
Know what it’s like @ times trying to go agin the mainstream here. I’m afraid you’re never going to convince some (any?; altho I myself keep @ it!?) regrds AWJ & I personally think that all the excrement heaped upon his head is, in part @ least, somewhat of an excuse for the BIL’s tour losses, esp last Sat. It’s how the TEAM were outperformed that was the real issue. Guys like Farrell, Furlong, Kruis & George for instance, felt the pinch (& or the pain?) & were out of their comfort levels & were relatively anonymous for me. Not much comfort perhaps, but AWJ’s ‘scapegoating’ is not an answer for the BIL’s & a somewhat pointless excercise methinks.
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I think to be fair you should take off your Dragon glasses.
Jones shouldn’t have been on the tour, simple as. There are any number of better locks in the British Isles than him.
I don’t deny he is whole hearted but that is it.
And this isn’t just me saying this. Outside of yourself and Gatland the suprize at his continued involvement is deafening.
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Jeremy I love the sound of those Dragon glasses, can I buy some? Everyone’s ganging up on poor Taliesin – I’m even feeling sorry for the Welsh! Let’s wait and see; we’ll all be happy if the team has a great game and the series goes to match 3.
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Jeremy I love the sound of those Dragon glasses, can I buy some? Everyone’s ganging up on poor Taliesin – I’m even feeling sorry for the Welsh! Let’s wait and see; we’ll all be happy if the team has a great game and the series goes to match 3.
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Lawes on the bench and Awj starting?Teo not starting ?Sexton at 10?Gats feeling the pressure and lost it.We have even less chance than we had last week.Feeling depressed
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Those convictions of gatlands are looking fewer and further between the longer this tour goes on. ‘I see farrel as a 10’ but actually now I want to steal from a better coach EJ …but without much understanding of what I’m doing and so now looks desperate. (Although I will say this could work, both are good players and farrel does know how to play at 12… but can he stop SWB as te’o did? I’m not sure)
Next ‘I will pick on form’ apart from if he is a Welsh favourite of mine that the whole world can see is long past his best and has been utterly useless all tour (AWJ) and the other options are nearly all English apart from Henderson who I ruined by making him play 70 minutes on Tuesday! (And I would put money if he hadn’t AWJ would still be starting but hendo on bench not lawes).
At least no halfpenny and I do think we needed a warbuton esq figure to spoil/do the breakdown work!!
I still want the lions to win… but there is a small part of me that thinks if they didn’t at least it would hopefully be the end of gatland, howley and one can hope AWJ ….
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I just find it almost impossible to believe that the worst player from last week, AWJ, retains his place. Sure Kruis had a few issues but at least he caused the ABs problems at the line out. AWJ literally added nothing. And this isn’t anything to do with his nationality. Every single media outlet I looked at, every single person I spoke to, had him as the Lions worst player.
Can anyone give me a single valid reason why he is there? If Kruis was going to be left out then Itoje and Lawes should have started with Henderson on the bench for impact.
Am worried about a Sexton Farrell axis defensively. Teo was excellent defending last week. Farrell although a strong tackler tends to miss quite a few as he goes too high, although that may be beneficial vs SBW, so long as he doesn’t get shrugged off.
Can’t understand the very average Stander on the bench over Tipuric who whilst too lightweight for starting, would have a great impact if the game opens up
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Rumours are that Itoje is calling the lineout as well, so what’s AWJ there for?
Agree on your point about Farrell. He hasn’t faced anyone as powerful as SBW playing at 12, he has a habit of going high so SBW could make a lot of metres this weekend.
I think Stander is tired. I don’t know the stats for minutes played on tour, but I bet he’s up there! They didn’t get an 8 in to replace Billy, and Moriarty only played one game, so he had to pick up the extra.
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Not sure whether I prefer SBW making metres or being stopped but still throwing his offloads…
Boy this tour has missed Billy Vunipola
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In fact is it not apparent the reason Kruis didn’t have a great game was he was carrying AWJ for the time he was on field.
Which will ensure Itoje will suffer tomorrow too.
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Jeremy D
Was AWJ responsible for Kruis’ knocking on & being stripped too? More likely AB pressure innit? Perhaps AWJ was also responsible for Kruis missing THAT last line out catch v Ireland in Dublin too? Gatland likely picked AWJ for his exp. Hasn’t quite worked thus far, but whom in the BIL pack has been outstanding? Seems that there’s too much scape-goating here & 1 person in a TEAM isn’t responsible for a 60/40 lack of possession which was the real culprit last Sat.
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Jeremy D
Miss print. It was me, not Dublin.
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Agree, good points.
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Its all about combinations , hence front,second,back ROW , Kruis carrying AWJ? , it couldn’t ave been by example , i have yet to see Kruis stand up and be counted , i had read about him before i saw him play , ..yeah he can be lifted and win a lineout , but i have yet to see the Kruis that i read about, looks very average to me and a long way to go to be anywhere near AWJ in his prime , i have yet to see any outstanding performance from any BIL second row this tour apart from Hendy’s last performance they all look average tbh, …yes AWJ is below his usual high standards but if he lifts his partner {in more ways than one} , eggs him on, pushes them to their limits etc via his experience it should benefit any team to have a legend like AWJ ,I fail to see that he has played bad , a bit quieter than usual yes, same could be said for Haskel, Sexton,Farrell, J.J, Murray,Marler, nobody could convince me these players have put in world class performances , far from it , yet we all kno some of them are capable , ..only one person KNOWS if AWJ is capable of more AWJ performances and if he puts his hand up to be picked , he is, it seems obvious to me that most ppl on here don’t see the wood for the trees, so many calling for Itoje ,..What was the score before AWJ went off 1st test for Itoje ?, loosin by 5 ? and after Itoje ?,….Hmmm?,…. and only Webb made it look better in last min ! i rest my case . That said i would not pick him before Hendy , but i would before Kruis, he’s over rated .
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Pablito
You don’t KNOW that to be true abt Billy V. Do you suppose that he alone could have turned the tide last w/end with his predictable bullocking charges? Do you think NZ wouldn’t have been aware of his game & countered it?
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Of course I don’t KNOW that to be true Don. Its supposition and opinion, like everything else on this site.
I have that opinion because the Lions lost the gainline last weekend and no one in the pack put their hand up to consistently make hard metres. Even SOB was quiet ball in hand. I THINK that Billy V could have been crucial there.
And yes the ABs would have been aware of what was coming and tried to counter it. Whether they would have been successful or not, who knows? Knowing what’s coming and stopping it are 2 very different things. At the very least it would have tied in more tacklers and hopefully created space elsewhere.
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Pablito
Ok. I suppose it’s just that I keep hearing that Billy is w class, etc not least in the media… & hear. However, I also recall that in the pivotal Dublin game he was ineffectual. I surmised that if the Irish nullified him, then NZ would likely be capable of doing the same, esp after their Dublin result. As you state though, ‘who knows’.
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Gatland doesn’t want to win, AWJ?? Te’o not starting, SBW will have a field day! Sexton is a quality player, but not last Saturday, blimey!
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Hilarious all the negative stuff from England supporters about AWJ. It will be so embarrassing for you all if he has a great game on Saturday – and he probably will, having played well below par (as most of the pack did) last week.
Gatland knows he’s still the best lock available, ON HIS DAY. Gats is expecting – demanding – a huge one from Alun Wyn, and I believe he’ll get it. But I still expect about 50 mins from him, then on comes Lawes. Let’s see if he can do any better!.
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So Gatland wasn’t ‘expecting – demanding – a huge one from Alun Wyn’ last week?
Or in any of the games prior to that? In all of which AWJ failed to deliver anything even close to a ‘huge one’
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Pablito don’t waste your breath on respnding.
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Hi Ben, no, there’s no response to that one, I agree.
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Pablito, yes I think he was; but he didn’t get it did he? Not from AWJ, PO’M, MV or several others. I know all you guys are still smarting from being kicked out of your own World Cup (believe me, I was as embarrassed as you), but don’t just rubbish Wales players for the sake of it! As I said, you’d have to be seriously demented to think Gatland and the other selectors would pick anyone they didn’t believe was the best available in that position. (and just to explain, selection is a team process, with Gats having what’s known as ‘The Casting Vote’. So Rowntree, Farrell, Borthwick etc. are not just there to look pretty! They have a say, and Borthwick backs AWJ)
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Oh for crying out loud, have a think before you post would you. You’re coming over as a perfectly balanced person with a chip on both shoulders.
AWJ was, by fairly unanimous decree, the worst player on the pitch. There were others who were not great (indeed many of us one eyed English were quite rightly disapointed by Kruis). But to accuse us of Welsh bashing is quite honestly daft.
Grow up
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Jeremy, honestly, abuse won’t get you anywhere. There are differing opinions on here, and everyone has a right to their own, albeit some more coherently expressed than others! I haven’t got a chip on my shoulder about AWJ, just think he’s still a super player who had a bad off-day (along with others) last week. I therefore do think he’s lucky to have retained his place (I say again, I would have picked Henderson). But he’r there now, and I believe will produce his A game at the week-end. And yes, I promise I WILL eat my words, munching loudly, if he doesn’t! But I think what we all want is a win. Can we agree on that?
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Taliesin, in fairness when you choose to descend to nationalistic stereotyping it is both silly and ignorant to suggest that one is aggrieved by the perceived rudeness of others.
It does not of course, invalidate your views but it does pose questions over their integrity.
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To pretend this has anything to do with nationality is being wilfully obtuse.
No-one has had a bad word yet about the selection of J Davies or L Williams (despite his schoolboy howler allowing the try that sealed the game) or even Warburton (despite him not having shown any form at all to date).
It clearly has nothing to do with nationality and everything to do with performance.
You say trust Gatland, he knows what he’s doing. That’s fine (although I look at his record against the southern hemisphere and wonder…). However, there is absolutely no reason why we should not discuss and support or decry his choices.
Irrespective of our opinion now, we will all be hoping that the team that runs out does the job they were selected to do and we’ll all cheer them on come kick-off .
BTW – you say Gatland and the selectors know best but this reminds me of Woodward’s obstinate selection of aging English stars during the last NZ tour – despite clear evidence that their form was not up to it. We all know what happened then…
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Bang on Pabs
Davies was the best lion on the park on Saturday, Williams break for the O’Brien try was exceptional and Warbs is slowly playing himself back into form. Owens is a solid dependable hooker, Webb is a great impact player once the game starts to open up late on, Faletau was awesome in the warm up games and Halfpenny is solid defensively even if he offers little going forwards.
I have lots of positive things to say about most of the Welsh test players.
However when it comes to AWJ I have absolutely nothing positive to say except that he “used” to be a great player.
Watch him on Saturday and note how long he takes to get back to his feet following tackles rucks and mauls and compare and contrast with Itoje. He looks old slow and knackered
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Completely forgot Faletau! Not sure how as he is a superb player. Just wish we had seen mor eof his attacking skills than his defence on Sat.
Still would have loved to see a back row with him and Billy V in it.
Also, I possibly would have started Webb over Murray
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Sorry, Blub; I think you’re trying to be reasonable, but that’s hard to do when what you say makes no sense at all. I have used no ‘national stereotyping’. So what you say is well-meant nonsense. Sorry.
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Yes Taliesin, it is well meant.
It is a shame that you infer it as nonsense – perhaps this should not surprise. You appear to have some valid and well considered views on the game, but to be clear; when such views are laced with nationalistic “nonsense”, it serves only to undermine the integrity of such views. Which is silly – and avoidable.
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Sorry, that’s absolute bollocks. AWJ is too old, and objectively the worst of the 5 locks, even on his day. I don’t think Kruis is in good enough form, but I’d rather him than AWJ. And before you accuse me of bias, my glasses would be green and not rose-tinted.
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GKDA, I actually wanted Henderson in there – he was immense last week. But all I can say re Alun Wyn is that the selectors don’t appear to agree with you or me!
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Taliesin, get over yourself, I’m entitled to an opinion, just like you are, hey that this what this forum is about. Here is a sweeping statement for you, I bet you’re a remoaner ha ha. But really who cares. From an English supporter I would have started with Webb over Murray, Davies over JJ, I would even have Biggar over sexton at the moment. I would not have AWJ and T’eo nullified SBW. But that is just my opinion and do you know what, right or wrong I’m entitled to it.
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Probably gonna regret this but what wrong with being a remoaner.
Brexit has been a collosal s**t show from the very start and with Theresa’s “Strong and stable” leadership I don’t see it getting any better
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No Politics; go comment on the Beeb News page if you feel the need.
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Fair enough
Would it help if I said he started it
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With everyone here, huge respect for AWJ and what he has done but can’t get why he is in the 23. Don’t know what Henderson has to do to get a start, bench spot. As an ex second row Henderson has been the best all round second row on tour. Sort of get the Farrell, Sexton axis, but not convinced it going to work as they have not had time to develop an understanding. Worried about Saturdays pending result. Come on the Lions…
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Seriously concerned by SBW blasting through Sexton/Farrell.
And AWJ.. Why, why, whyyyy..! How early can they sub Lawes on?
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We need a Conor Murray style stray elbow friendly fire scenario
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They would need an octopus playing for them to cause enough damage to affect the result Leon.
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Nah an octopus would be entirely ineffectual
Soft elbows
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Silly. Ignorant.
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Taliesin:
The same English supporters of whom many have decried Tips’ non inclusion? Come on mate, we’re all Lions supporters first and foremost. Surely even you can contend that AWJ shouldn’t be there. Of course, eventually, hopefully, he will play a blinder and no doubt you’ll feel vindicated but please stop taking offense at the swathe of genuine supporters’ who share the same opinion on a ‘once great’ player they have great respect for.
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Neither. Just a bit of friendly banter which you would seem to be too wound up to appreciate.
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TI has been outstanding and must be really disappointed. Also what have Lawes and Henderson got to do !!! Sexton is low in confidence .Warburton is not 100%.That is all I have to say.Huge gambles !!!
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I like the back-row here. We needed to change things here to try and compete at the breakdown. Itoje will help on this too (as well as at the point of contact). That said, Stander has been so far away from the player he is for Ireland – I am a huge fan of his, but you can’t justify him being on the bench on form.
Probably the most confusing bit is the 10/12 decision. Gatland did everything he could to avoid trying this out in the warm-up games, but now it is Test time he is all-in on it. Perhaps he has pulled off a strategic masterstroke here, but one might think getting a game or two of the double playmaker game-plan pre-Tests might have been a good idea.
Can’t be bothered to type anything about AWJ.
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The Sexton-Farrell axis only has a chance of working if the Lions win loads of ball. There is no chance of that happening. AB’ s to win by 20. Gatland’ s management skills have been tested and found wanting on this tour, but given the ludicrous scheduling he was on to a loser from the start. Had he taken Launchbury, (extremely fit and in prime form) and Robshaw instead of AWJ and Warburton (over the hill and not fully recovered from injury respectively), we might have done slightly better but this squad was never going to match the AB’ s in being able to perform instinctively at high pace. If (that should probably be when) we get thumped this week it will be interesting to see if he picks a lot more of the mid week side for the last game. It appears that he still has little idea what his best combinations are in crucial areas, nor what sort of a game he wants to play.
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I don’t think the scheduling can be blamed; the coaches knew about the schedule well in advance. If fatigue was going to be an issue, take a bigger squad. We could’ve taken 1/2 more players in a few positions and fully rotated for each game, giving everyone a chance to prove themselves prior to tests whilst allowing for recovery and injury cover. Instead we have locks/half-backs playing twice in a week giving them no time to rest and limiting selection for the tests. Bringing in a few players near the end hasn’t helped anyone; these players haven’t integrated and aren’t of use if needed for injury cover.
The management are entirely to blame for what is becoming a farcical tour.
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Fair comment Jake but knowing the schedule in advance did not prevent a lot of the squad arriving already knackered after a long domestic season, and no professional should be asked to play less than 72 hours after a very long flight. Several players are only just beginning to run into form and the management team still don’t know their best 23 or how to use them most effectively. I forecast 3-0 to the AB’ s before the start, and have seen nothing to change my mind.
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Fair comment Jake but knowing the schedule in advance did not prevent a lot of the squad arriving already knackered after a long domestic season, and no professional should be asked to play less than 72 hours after a very long flight. Several players are only just beginning to run into form and the management team still don’t know their best 23 or how to use them most effectively. I forecast 3-0 to the AB’ s before the start, and have seen nothing to change my mind.
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Andy
You mostly make sense to me. Although the schedule stuff was agreed yrs ago & it is what it is. The Lions have to live with it. If It enters their mindset, then it could be curtains on Sat. The breakdown is crucial, as the line outs & scrum may be more even. IMO Gatland simply has to throw numbers in & take the chance of being outnumbered out wide. May be beggered if he does.. or doesn’t, but for me he has little choice. That Gatland has dumped his last captain & Kruis from the squad altogether does indicate uncertainty. He therefore surely must max breakdown possession & keep it at all costs.. & get his team to stay thinking under pressure. Use the ball diligently; i.e. don’t chuck hopeful passes, expect breaks & have support runners on hand, STRAIGHTEN the attack & get in wide, accurately! Probably should also eschew kicks @ goal in favour of attack. Last chance to do so tomorrow. Hope you’re right about the 20 pts, but if Gatland gets his team to get their tactics right, who knows, but & I think they’ll have to score (a try!) 1st?
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Ryan Grant confirming what a lot of Scots suspected. Complete incompetence as a coach, or just arrogant as feck.
Feck the lion’s was trying to be neutral but I now really hope that the All Black’s are going to give them a sans lube prison style treatment.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40437419
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“There’s not much respect from players in the English Premiership for the Pro12,”
Whats the AP vs P12 got to do with anything…
In fact what have the players got to do with anything…
The issue here is Gatland (an International coach) doesn’t respect Scottish players. He clearly respects Pro12 teams given the some of the inexplicable Welsh Pro12 players in the squad
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Wow that article comes across as a bitter man still smarting over what he perceived as an injustice 4 years ago. Let it go Ryan!
Irrespective of that, I think Gatland’s lack of trust in the Scots was mainly down to the way they can play so well one week and then look like a rabble who have barely met just seven days later.
An impression subsequently confirmed by their win over Aus followed immediately by the loss to Fiji
And other than AWJ, I can’t think of any Lions player I’d replace for their Scots equivalent. And I’d take Launchbury as a replacement before any of the Scottish locks.
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Agreed but to be told by the forwards coach the reason you sat on the bench for eighty minutes as a prop is that they didn’t rate you is…
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Ryan Grant gives his opinion and confirms what?
Scotland have traditionally been the weakest side of the home nations, and have only recently started playing some great rugby. Im a big Scotland fan, and enjoy watching the play, but this whining about not being given the respect is just ridiculous; respect is earned.
Ryan Grant needs to take the chip off his shoulder. Don’t know what the Scotland national side or the AP or the P12 has to do with the BIL.
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Seriously put a prop on the bench for eighty minutes and then tell him that he did not get on as the forwards coach did not rate him. Why on the bench then.
==
It’s a tough pill to swallow even now, to be so close and to really feel like the team could have benefited from me coming on,” Grant added. “Mako was clearly wrecked and we were under the pump, and a bit of fresh legs would have benefited the team. It kind of made it a bit worse that the scrum wasn’t going particularly well.
Mako Vunipola
Vunipola, pictured on this year’s tour, started ahead of Grant in 2013
“I kind of avoided [forwards coach] Graham Rowntree for a few days after that because I was bitterly disappointed and if we spoke sooner, I would probably say something stupid.
“So I let it cool down for a couple of days, went and spoke to him, and he just kind of said to me that he hadn’t seen enough of me and he wasn’t sure he could trust me in a Test match like that, and it was the one they lost.
“I just had to say, ‘listen, I totally disagree with you, and if you’d watched any of the Six Nations games you’d know I could handle myself, so we’ll agree to disagree’ – I don’t think we’ve said a single word to each other since.
“Mako was cramping up and he was down every two minutes, so it was kind of an extra kick in the face. But it is what it is – it was four years ago now.”
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“But it is what it is – it was four years ago now.”
But I’ve still gone and bought it all up again in the UK’s largest media outlet….
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Pablito
Gotta agree with you on that one. It would have been better addressed at the time or after the tour in 2013. But if a forwards coach actually said to a player he was just there to warm the bench then I really struggle with that as good coaching. Surely the forwards coach should know the playing ability of all of his forwards and not just his favourites few. Granted Ryan was an injury call up but in today’s media world would not be hard to get up to speed with a player
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Agree that the Rowntree incident is bad, but I don’t think the experience of Grant can be extrapolated to the entire nation.
The positions where Scotland had the best chance of being selected as Lions were coincidentally the most competitive: Lock, Prop, Fly-half.
I also think that sort of treatment isn’t reserved for just the scots, the bench against the Canes also had a similar experience.
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Jake
Yeah agree as well, we were and indeed will always struggle to get decent representation until Scotland are consistently winning matches.
The non use of the bench against the Canes was to be inexcusable and cost the match.
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If the Lions forwards can get some go forward ball, then Sexton/Farrell is a better bet than Te’o at 12, particularly in the wind and rain of Wellington.
If the Lions don’t get parity up front, then it really doesn’t matter who plays in the midfield.
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I agree; though Teo has been very good I think that playing both him and Davies together is a bit limiting. Forwards need to try and dominate the breakdown, which the inclusion of Itoje and (hopefully) Warburton will improve.
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Faz/Sexton combo could be an inspired decision if Howler has actually come up with some ways to make it work (so no on that one, it will be a disaster!) in attack. In defence that is a lot of pressure on Faz to contain SBW. I would like to see Davies step in and take some the heat off Faz there, but I’m not holding my breath.
Itoje in right call. Kruis out wrong call. These two players work best as a pair, especially with George at hooker. Galtand’s obsession with keeping AWJ in the team is getting a little tiring. If someone can tell me what he’s shown so far this tour that keeps him a starting spot (I’m talking solid evidence and good stats) then I will bow down to their superior knowledge.
I am slighlty encourage to see Lawes, T’eo and Nowell on the bench because it means that there is at least some resemblance of a plan B if plan A is not working (which I think will be the case).
In some ways I’m glad I won’t be around to watch this live on Saturday morning as I fell we are going to get smashed.
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Think you are right Dazza. Still, nice to see Nowell get a shot. The way he’s turned his game around, he deserves it
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Dazza, if a test inside centre needs the outside centre to step in and look after him, then I’m afraid the selection is wrong. I would have kept Te’o; looking at the game, I thought our backs did well, and were in fact more creative and dangerous than NZ, the distortion of that impression being the gifted try.
But the problems were in the pack not the backs, and I’m far from convinced the changes made will actually affect the outcome. I hope they will; but I honestly wanted to see Henderson in the mix. Did the yellow swing it against him?
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Taliesin, I think that both the backs and the forwards had problems.
The forwards problems were more obvious and contributed to the result of the game, but the backs problems should not be under-estimated, as they did very little with the small amount of ball they received.
Te’o added nothing going forward, and indeed butchered a real try scoring opportunity. He was excellent in defence of course, but there is more to beating New Zealand than simply stopping SBW.
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Agreed Taliesin, if a 13 has to step in to assist defence in the 12 channel, then the attack has won already.
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Dazza, I’m amazed and frankly pretty dismayed by the total negativity on this site. Did you not realise how massively the cards were stacked against the Lions? With the ridiculous schedule, a scratch side coming to play the twice world champs, possibly best rugby side ever seen on the planet, AT HOME! Give them a break, get behind them. Will you eat your words if we win on Saturday?? Hope so! I’ll provide a spoon and come and watch 😉
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I fully appreciated the enormity of the task, but I think the lack of a top quality attack coach on the team and some of the selections have prevented any chance of winning one test.
Picking players on form at the time of selection. Players who can make a difference and not just make up the numbers. Pick experienced players who have been on tour before, but only if they are in good form. If they’re not, leave them behind.
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I’m not sure Gatland knows what his tactics are.
He’s bought in Warburton to improve the breakdown which is fine. But he’s left AWJ in.
He’s gone for EJ’s 2 playmakers but without any practice together and both of whom are short of form.
How does he want to play? It looks like he wants to play quickly, getting the ball to the back 3 – but then why aren’t Henderson and Tipuric involved? Both would be far more suited to that type of game than AWJ or Stander.
Last week the ABs showed how ‘Warrenball’ should be played. Fast , strong forwards running off a quick nine playing at the back of an accurate, speedy breakdown. A strong inside centre providing momentum over the gain line. Accurate tactical kicking. Fast back three to chase kicks and take advantage of errors. There was nothing flashy tactically.
This is how Gatland sees ‘warrenball’ in his dreams. And now Hansen has taken it and shown Gatland how it should be done, Gatland is at a loss for what to do to counter it.
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Seems to be a awful lot of expert pundits on here, who have probably never touched a rugby ball let alone played.
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In what situation would you be touching a rugby ball and not playing?
And a pundit is, by definition, an expert. 😉
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?. Maybe a ball boy or something :). Some people Who’ve never played the sport just need to get a grip and get behind the team rather than whinge all the time mate
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Touche, I would’ve also accepted Referee.
Irrespective of whether any of us have played, the fact we all bother to chirp up on here suggests we all love the game, and no doubt will be cheering on the Lions come Saturday.
What many are finding it hard to do (myself included) is understand why a test team has not been assembled with the best players available, given the performances of all unions over the past year.
Again this is all just opinion, but it sure drives healthy debate.
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Counts me out then, over 30 years playing and coaching experience.
And I stand by my thoughts on AWJ
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Adz, with all your superior knowledge and all that, perhaps it is beneath you to understand that forums like this are for us armchair pundits, key board coaches etc. The diverse opinions is what it is all about. I suspect most commentators on here wish the BIL well and hope they win regardless of selection, but we all do have an opinion on it and we are entitled to it, just like you are.
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’tis the nature of our world-wide web, Adz!
@Jake – when you’re too old and/or too broken to play anymore 🙁
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Adz – this is what is called a discussion. It is had by adults who are interested in a subject.
Whilst I’d be surprised if anyone commenting here didn’t have some personal experience, I couldn’t less about that if they have a salient point or opinion to add.
Clearly however, you have neither, so do leave us adults to our discussion.
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Touched a nerve did I. I agree with the awj thing but just enjoy the game and stop throwing toys out of your pram kid!
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Nice of you to prove my point Adz. Got anything useful or interesting to say? If not, let me direct you to your spiritual home – http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/index.html
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All that negativity for nothing pablito. Stick to your day job as you clearly know shit about rugby. Leave the professionals pick the team 🙂
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Gatland is a complete tool how can he pick AWJ he was useless last week and has been all tour. Last match he was that unfit he was breathing through his ears after 10 minutes.
If I was O,Mahoney and Teo I would go home
No chance on Saturday Blacks 30plus
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“If I was O,Mahoney and Teo I would go home”
Seriously???
I would hope that if they had that attitude to a team sport, they wouldn’t have come on the tour in the first instance.
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Interesting readings, but feeling left out with all the infighting of course. However the? is, whatever team Gatland has, or could have put out, likely to win, or to have won, more breakdown possession which surely is key? Unless this happens, team selection seems somewhat academic. Also, will the AB’s dominate possession again or even improve here? Personally, I think the Sexton, Farrell combo is a fudge & Teo should have kept his place, if only to counter SBW. An alt 1/2 combo could have been the Welsh pair of Webb & Biggar. Surprised Gatland’s stuck with AWJ to start as Lawes seems a more dynamic option now, alongside Itoje, who will simply have to put up. Warburton’s pick makes some sense, being an exp Lion & captain, but @ 7, not 6. Seems POM is now seen as an error last up, esp so as he was the previous captain?! And Sinckler may have been worth a punt to see if he can help shore up the scrum & to try out his running & carrying game. If NZ get stuck in early & score (a TRY), it’s going to be tough for the Lions, but if thy score 1st, it could be really intense. A must win for both teams?
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yep agreed. Lions need to front up in the contact area or its going to be a long night.
Not sure about your 1/2 back paring suggestion as Webb offers a great threat round the fringes but far less control (much better as impact sub) and Biggar has some great individual talents but doesn’t tend to get the best out of the players outside him
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Ihave just read Henshaw and North will play no further part in the tour.Well they did,nt play a lot of part when they were there.
Going home Saturday wish AWJ. was going with them
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I wonder if the fact Henshaw is injured had any influence on the decision to play Sexton and Farrell? No point getting a replacement in for Henshaw with Farrell able to play 12 and with Biggar and Russell in the squad. Will he replace North? Doesn’t seem worth it now with so many other good wingers there already. If he was going to replace him who would people like to see? If anyone suggests Cuthbert I will not be held responsible for my actions!!
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Cuthbert is well qualified to be called up Dazza. He is Welsh, probably on holiday locally and not good enough to play even off the bench. A near cert I would think!
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Doubt there would be any call ups now the midweek side are finished.
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Awj keeps his place. Unbelievable, Gatland must have some inside knowledge on his mental state. I do not see a test match performance coming from him again. He was well off the pace, no longer has the engine and showed no leadership. ( the main reason he was in).
Warbs however, i think will bring the goods. Henderson really unlucky.
I hope we don’t have a Farrell / Sexton ego off on Saturday.
I think POM’s one off performance in the Six Nations has come home to roost( which is a great pity).
Gatland’s clutching at straws here. I dont think he knows how he wants to play. He puts Fas and Sexston together but plays Davis at outside centre. With Ben on the Bench, is he looking to go route one at 50 minutes.?
JN is not showing enough form at the moment. Should have been JJ.
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Holy f* that’s a lot of comments
I’ll throw my vaguely purple tinted opinion into the ring
Jones weirdly fortunate to make the squad considering lawes and Henderson’s performance against the canes
I’m cool with the sexton-farrell set up, it is a different plan and farrell ought not to be too shown up physically by Sonny bill
Maybe just maybe seymour has shown himself to be a good enough finisher to get a spot on the bench? Particularly with daly able to cover centre and him and Watson able to cover fullback
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