Foul play cannot be condoned. However, punishment ought to fit the offence.

Abuse, in my book, doesn’t equate to say, kicking a player in the head. If, in Hartley’s case, Barnes had taken a different action, like issuing a yellow or penalty, options open to him, then it wouldn’t have led to the former’s missing a Lion’s tour.

In respect of ‘SH international sides… get(ting) away with murder…’, you only quote the BOD incident. I dare say that if you wanted to look for the same in the NH, you’d likely find it.

In the BoD case, the 2 involved were Mealamu & Umaga. I’d venture in respect of that incident that the ABs were likely intent on making an impression on O’Driscoll, for sure, but as a deliberate attempt to maim? I doubt it. The 2 had no previous (or since as far as I know). And there was no need. The Lions were hammered in that series.

And can you recall any other concerning these 2? Also, ‘In a test match against Wales on 21 June 2003, Welsh captain Colin Charvis was knocked out in a tackle from All Blacks forward Jerry Collins. Umaga stopped playing despite his team being in an attacking position; to check that Charvis had not swallowed his mouth guard’.

And both WERE exonerated by a Saffa!

Having stated all that, I realise that it was all the same in the end to BOD. Whether on purpose or not, it could have ended worse than it did. Some punishment could have been merited, but for me intent does still have a bearing & ought to be taken into consideration.. which is my pt..

And I have to disagree with the ref abuse charge! As it was Barnes who was ‘abused’, surely Hartley ought to have got a gong in the Honours list?

Well hookers, along with the other 15 on the field, must be more multi-tasking these days, so to criticise Youngs for ‘poncing about in midfield’, is surely partly missing the point.

I don’t think NZ, for instance, quite regard Dane Coles as a ponce with his tries from midfield.

However, I agree that a hooker also ought to scrummage & (probably; some teams simply all push only) hook properly.

Burger should have been sent off v Lions in 2009 for gouging Luke Fitzgerald but the touch judge just bottled it. My mates and I watched the game on tv and were absolutely appalled that he got away with it. Meanwhile in the 3rd test SA players carried out a series of ‘assaults’ on Lions players and were just allowed to carry on. Picking up Martin Williams and just throwing him to the floor was one such example.

Meanwhile the ref and touch judge both bottled it when 2 of the ABs took out O’Driscoll right at the start of the game in 2005. BoD was lucky not to break his neck and neither of the 2 ABs received any sanction afterwards.

With SH international sides I have seen far far too many refs let them get away with murder on the field. In BoD’s case he could have been permanently paralysed or even killed as a result of a broken neck when 2 guys picked him up and dumped him on his head.

As far as England are concerned, I think Pigface would be a real liability. Refs may well ‘target him for penalties as a ‘known offender’ in the past.’

Funnily enough, I’m with you on this one. Hartley’s had his issues, but Jones knows this & if he is to be captain, surely EJ will have spoken to Hartley about his responsibilities.

Also, Hartley had a bit of a rum deal in (unwisely?) tangling with the ego driven Barnes who could, if he’d had the maturity or affinity with rugby, simply have pinged or yellowed DL on THAT occasion.

Additionally, Hartley’s ‘head butt’ was hardly that was it? More a mutual ‘head rest’ for both players involved? Still he’ll need to learn that ‘fair play’ doesn’t always work both ways, especially in the form of punishment.

And as you state, what other options? Robshaw seems to lack tactical awareness & is unlikely to be guaranteed a place; not @ openside anyway. Maybe blind?

Easter would in theory be a contender, but will not feature, in the long term @ least.

No one else seems to put their hand up for me, even Brown, as he too can be a bit temperamental – just like you know who. Not an ideal posi either, although not the determining factor.

Hartley is experienced, guaranteed to start, has captaining experience – good choice, at least for now.

I also think if someone fishooks you in the mouth they deserve everything they get.

Punching, elbowing and headbutting happen all the time. Gouging is unacceptable but it was a long time ago so. The abuse of the ref was very bad though.