Ben Morgan suffered a hammer-blow to his chances of featuring for England at this year’s World Cup when he broke his leg at the weekend, leaving him facing surgery and six months on the sidelines. He’ll certainly be out for the Six Nations, and working under the assumption that Billy Vunipola will be in the squad anyway, which of the below options (who would appear to be the frontrunners) would you like to see called into the squad in his place? Or would you rather have someone else?
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35 replies on “Poll: who should replace Ben Morgan in the England squad?”
Armitage, really!! He might switch sides when we play France!!
Jesus. Armitage plays in France, so therefore he’s ineligible.
It doesn’t matter if you agree with this policy or not – SL and co. are NOT going to change it this close to a RWC. So why is he on this list?
Peteyboyb, I think you’ve misunderstood my comment. I don’t want Armitage either, and totally agree with the policy. I’m just commenting on the result of the poll, which is what this post is about.
Sorry Dazza, wasn’t meant as a attack on you – I probably shouldn’t have hit ‘reply’.
But including Armitage in this poll – even though he’s not going to be picked (no he isn’t!) – has meant all the discussion is focused on him, and not Waldrom, Easter, or any of the other genuine contenders.
IMHO I think Thomas should get the nod, but unfortunately he doesn’t play for a fashionable club ;-p
No worries. I wondered if that may have been the case. Waldrom is probably the in-form player most likely to get the nod. Personally though I would rather see another youngster given a go. Ewers or Wilson?
I wonder if we’ll see a twist in this Armitage saga. Overseas players have historically been selected for England (whilst this policy has been in place) in circumstances where they have already agreed a move back to England. This was pointed out by someone the other day on this forum and Tom Palmer was cited as an example….
I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s announced that SA will be moving to an English club next season and therefore be selected for RWC squad on that basis…
If that happens then great! Pick him!
No one has ever sat here and said that Armitage is not good enough. If in England then he walks into our back row.
However the stance on not picking players outside of our league makes sense and is something SL must stick to.
Madness for anyone who selected Armitage.
Waldrom is the most likely – been part of SL squads before and playing well. Bit of a mute debate because all the time Vunipola is fit none of these players will see a match day squad.
Josh Beaumont could be a left field shout though – looks a top player.
That’s not true Peteyboyb – according to media reports last week Lancaster is considering including him in RWC camps and if so he should pick him now, Morgan’s (sad) injury offers the perfect excuse to pick him. What’s more of a step backwards, picking Easter or Armitage? Neither in my opinion, but Armitage edges it.
It’s time for Lancaster to be assertive regarding this issue. He might only get one shot at a World Cup and he’ll regret not picking the best players if England get knocked out early…
Maybe the next poll should be: If Steffon Armitage were to return to the Premiership, which club would/should he join?
Bath or Saracens surely? Can anyone else afford him?
The hyperbole surround Armitage I’d nearly as bad as the mass media orgy of one Sam Burgess.
We seem to forget that Armitage plays well for Toulon because he has been there for a few years now.
Trying to show horn him into an England side with different defensive patterns, different attacking strategem and personnel that Armitage doesn’t know, hasn’t played with and thus cannot read as well as his Toulon seems ridiculous to me. If he was going to play, and have the same effect for England as he does for Toulon, then he should’ve started playing his rugby in England AT LEAST a season ago.
It’s his own stupid fault for chasing the money in France (which given the modern player’s career longevity is understandable) that he isn’t playing for England and I hope SL has the fortitude NOT to pick him.
Apologies for the atrocious spelling and grammar. Auto correct ftw.
IF he were to join an english club my money would be on Northampton, who need to replace Manoa. Not sure Saracens need Armitage as they have Vunipola, and a fair bit of other back row talent. Of course they could use him, but do they want him at the cost?
Bath would be the other possible, but they may prefer to coach Burgess into the 8 shirt.
We’ll get Satan’s Back Row of Wood/Robshaw/Haskell (i.e. 666).
I agree with Dave, if the media reports are correct then why wait for RWC training squad – if he is going to be in then get him in as early as possible.
Understand the point about familiarity and patterns etc but he seems honest and smart enough to learn them quickly. At the end of the day why wouldn’t you want your best players available to you in a World cup, playing in France or not? Agree with the policy but surely that’s why the ‘exceptional circumstances’ clause is there isn’t it?
Surely if top players know they can still play in world cups then the whole principal of the rule is compromised? Let’s be honest, the WC is a big one for most players.
Some, not all, would look at that and try to do the same.
I agree with Egg Chaser. We know Armitage performs well at European cup level behind a giant pack that steamrollers most teams it comes up against
What we don’t know is how he would perform in the first 6 Nations game on a Friday night against Wales in Cardiff, gaining his first cap in many years against a very good Welsh side who will be out for blood
The Wales game is an important one for England to win. Give me the experience and know-how of Easter and Waldrom any day over a bloke who hasn’t played international rugby in 6 years.
Not sure about that. On playing ability I don’t really think you can question Armitage.
Also, how can you argue that Armitage hasn’t played international in 6 years and then call for Easter who hasn’t played internationl rugby in 4 years?
Of course you can question Armitage on playing ability. No-one knows if he can do what he does for Toulon at international level. The rugby world is littered with great club players who didn’t quite cut the mustard at international level.
The only way to find out is to play him and you don’t want to start him vs Wales in Cardiff in a crucial game for England, only to find out that what looks brilliant elsewhere doesn’t shine so brightly in front of a crowd of baying Welsh supporters
As for your question about Easter:
Armitage: 3 starting caps for England
Easter: 46 starting caps for England Includes 2 caps as captain, 1 World Cup final and 1 World Cup quarter-final
We know Easter can step up to international level
The questioning of Easter against Armitage was more based on your assertion regarding Armitage’s time out of the game.
Obviously anyone is entitled to question anyones ability to play at the highest level but I struggle to see how a guy that excels surrounded by world class players would not perform well on the international stage. Can’t think of many the perform the way he does in a back row next to the likes of Lobbe that can not make the step up.
You would honestly play Waldrom over Armitage? Really?
Well, I’d play Easter but I’d rather see Waldrom in there than ‘exceptional circumstances’ invoked when the circumstances really aren’t exceptional. We’ve only lost one number 8 and there is cover
Easter,all day long for me. Armitage is mired in the “wrong side of the Channel debate”,Waldrom has never cut it for England,Ewers should be in the 6N squad as a six,ditto Haskell.
Big Billy? seems distracted and possibly has started to believe his own publicity,unlike Mako,whose example he needs to follow.
Experience, size, intelligence and form all say Easter.
Agree with this but personally don’t have too many problems with Waldrom as cover
Ewers and Haskell should only be considered at 8 in a dire emergency
I think BV has realised that just being big and strong doesn’t automatically equal success at this level, but I think he’s good enough to step up a level. Such a shame Morgan got crocked as it would have been great to have the 2 of them trying to out-play each other.
Mako seems to be playing well. Loosehead is going to be an interesting call for SL this 6 Nations. Think my current pecking order would be Marler, Corbisiero, Vunipola, Mullan
Interesting how things can change in rugger. A couple back Waldrom was the darling of (some of?) the press, then Billy was the next ‘big thing’… or was he? Now the ST has mooted that Steffon Armatage has SL making overtures to him?! Well, it’s to be seen, but I recall the ‘erudite & eloquent’ hear superciliously explaining to me some 18 mths or so back that I didn’t grasp the concept of a player plying his trade abroad (Fr) was ineligible for England, full stop! As Alexi Sayle said; ‘It’s a funny old world’. Anyway, I’d for for Easter due to his nous, exp & talking SENSE whenever he’s been on the telly & whereby he oozez maturity & a grasp of his game above most. But than there’s Lancs ageism isn’t there, so that only leaves, you’ve guessed it, Steffon Armatage! Some reshuffling required tho.
If you are correct Don, then SL needs quicker feet than Kyle Eastmond to dance around this issue after all the stonewall refusals to consider Armitage! I think the RFU got this wrong right from the start. It was a pathetic attempt to copy the All Black model which is now starting to backfire.
Having said all that if England can’t find half a dozen suitable eights in the Prem then something is seriously wrong somewhere. If Armitage is going to be included in the Wcup top 40 then it should be at O/S not eight.And es I know he has played there for Toulon but he drew nearly all his rave reviews at seven,a position which England are not nearly so well provided for.
Dear God. I agree with Don about something. He’s right about Easter. Never thought I’d see the day
Now to return to normal service and disagree with him again.
Don – if you bothered to read what people write rather than what you think they wrote, you would know that there has always been an ‘exceptional circumstances’ get-out clause in England’s refusal to pick overseas players. It has been used in the past for Tom Palmer I think. It is this clause that SL seems to be considering invoking. And if he does, it will be wrong in my opinion. We’ve only lost one 8 and these are not dire circumstances. But ‘exceptional circumstances’ means different things to different people
As for the ‘next big thing’, that’s the press world-wide for you, always looking for the new thing to hype up
Oh and Carl Fearns should be in their somewhere too. Big ,strong ,aggressive and massively underrated.
Pablito – isn’t the exceptional circumstance that he’s playing incredibly well? What do you define as being an exceptional circumstance? I really don’t understand why so many England fans (assuming they are!) toe the RFU line on this issue. The Uruguay football team shouldn’t play Luis Suarez (well they probably shouldn’t for the good of humanity but..) because he’s playing abroad… Yeah good one. And that’s a Spain to Uruguay flight. Armitage can get to Surrey / London in the same time Wilko could when he was at Newcastle!
He didn’t move to France for money. Most England players get paid 200k – 500k per year, all income considered anyway. The Dylan Hartley heart breaking press release when he re-signed for Northampton was a load of rubbish.
Armitage moved to improve, get away from a stagnating club, play with the best players in the world and win trophies. And because a certain Hendre Fourie was (ridiculously IMO) keeping him out of the England squad.
Not asking for any out of form French based players to be picked ie Toby Flood – clearly not an exceptional circumstance. If you have have watched much Top 14 and European rugby you’ll know that Armitage has become one of the best back rowers in Europe, outstanding against the likes of Warburton and O’Brien in recent years.
England need a scavenger! And probably a fitter number 8.
PS Tom Palmer and Ben Morgan were selected abroad in SL’s first squad because they had already agreed moves back to England. Lancaster has never really used the “exceptional circumstances” clause.
Are any of our opinions on what “exceptional circumstances” means relevant? It is supposed to be completely ambiguous so that SL can decide as and when he wants to invoke it.
What on earth has flight times got to do with this issue? Can’t ever remember SL or the RFU citing flight times being an issue here.
The issue is keeping our best players in England – which is important for the long term growth of rugby union in this country.
The 200k-500k is a HUGE difference! If Armitage gets selected simply based on how well he is playing then Corbs, Tuilagi, Brown, Ford, Hartley etc. would all go over to France as well – probably double their wage if they knew just playing well meant they could still pick up their England pay packet too!
If the RFU allow this, the money pull in France is so huge players will go, that is a fact.
Picking Armitage based on form is short-termism and should not happen.
Long term – less fans go to matches, less kids play rugby etc etc.
However, if like Palmer and Morgan, he is selected on the basis that he will return to English rugby after the WC – get him in.
Teecee
Agree about the need for Kyle Eastmond’s quicker feet, ha, ha and that the RFU got a bit ‘wrong right from the start’ (but that’s another story). However, I don’t understand this ‘pathetic attempt to copy the All Black model which is now starting to backfire’ bizzo? Do you mean that England shouldn’t have an all round game? How did they actually ‘copy’ the ABs? And how is it ‘starting to backfire’? If you mean run the ball, don’t other teams run it as well? As far as I can see the AB’s attempt to mainly score tries when they’ve got the pill & attempt to stop the oppo from doing likewise when they haven’t.
Pablito
Regds. You may well invoke God methinks, because if you took your own advice you would have recalled that the ” ‘exceptional circumstances’ get-out clause” has been dealt with prev. I agree it means ‘ diff things to different people’, but if losing 6 on the bounce v the SH with less than a yr to the WC ain’t ‘exceptional’, then I’m a Pom. Imagine an AB coach lasting 10 secs with that record?! However, it’s not just the players, it’s in the coaching too.
Dave Skepton
Cor blimey, there’s an (a grateful) echo in here!
Jacob
No. None of our opinions about anything are relevant to anyone but ourselves, with the exception of combined opinions to this site.
I’ve been accused of ‘regurgitating’ prev, so isn’t this just more of the same.
However, I found it kind of interesting that (presumably) 1 of yr own, DS, above is now expressing similar sentiments to my own. Perhaps he’s less rigid than some of you who support a coach & country in maintaining an intransigent posture regarding ‘exceptional circumstances’ with a 6 in a row loss rate v the SH? Ah, well, ‘it’s a funny ol’ world’. Maybe one day, who knows, the penny will drop. Called wisdom I think.