Rate the match between the Irish Wolfhounds and England Saxons in Cork, and leave your thoughts on the game in the comments section below.
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Rate the match: Ireland Wolfhounds vs England Saxons
Rate the match between the Irish Wolfhounds and England Saxons in Cork, and leave your thoughts on the game
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38 replies on “Rate the match: Ireland Wolfhounds vs England Saxons”
SL has some terrible blind spots.There has been nothing in Burgess’s performance at Bath to warrant selection as was evidenced by a very poor performance tonight.Yet SL decided weeks ago to choose him.Burgess needs at least 20 games at Bath before he is considered again
I was saying this (and getting pilloried for it ) weeks ago. SL is a mass of unhealthy contradictions.
If you recall he actually began by denying outright that he had any plans for Burgess this year when Slammin’ first joined Bath.
Then he backtracked and suggested it wasn’t out of the question that if Burgess did well in the back row for Bath he may force his way into contention for the Wcup.
That was followed by a waiting period as Burgess was deployed at centre.
After his debut in the European game more positive noises came out of the England camp. Seven? games into his career in union he makes his Saxons debut.
It will be interesting to see now ,given Manu’s absence, whether SB is drafted into the 6N squad at some point,paticularly if things go badly in Cardiff.
Of course it would be massively premature to do so but that brings us back to where we began. SL and his tendency to panic and clutch at straws.
burgess wasn’t ready for that step up and it showed, although I’m glad he was put in there – at least SL knows now.
Thought Kvesic, Thomas, Waldrom and Ewers were excellent. Ashton also played well aside from one incident I thought his defensive alignment was much improved.
Stu we will see if SL gets it -not certain he will.Ashton indeed had a good game but the man simply can’t tackle.I find it incredible coaches have’nt taught him years ago.
Just read SL does’nt get it as Sam is joining the first team at Pennyhill!!As I wrote elsewhere i can’t believe the player’s confidence is great as he must know he had a very poor game.Indeed he said he now sees the gap between the 2 rugby games is much wider than he thought.
SB is joining the first team for 2 days to ‘help his development’. SL has categorically stated that he won’t feature in the 6N because he is not ready.
And pennell, excellent
I suspect Big Sam’s confidence has been badly shaken and deep inside he is regretting his move to union.I think SL saw him a long time ago as the answer to 12 -instead Sam’s future is now in jeapardy by being over exposed in every sense by SL.Very poor management
Really fed up with the press coverage. Every report of the game had Burgess in the title. At least most pointed out that he was poor. Don’t know what game the Guardian was watching as they thought he had a good game! Pennell and the whole back row put their hands up for consideration. Hard on Slade to pick him at FH when most of his rugby is in the centre at the moment. It showed. Maybe a player who needs a change of scenery?
” Every report of the game had Burgess in the title. ” Hear hear. SB has a decent game – story will be all about him, SB has a duff game – story still all about him. Ridiculous.
SB seems like a decent bloke, a great RL player who was going to have a tilt at playing RU. What he needed was a full season of club RU play where he could through the ups and downs that would happen and see if he could migrate. No chance of making WC 2015 but hopefully he could make a fist of it.
What he has instead is unbelievable amounts of pressure on him to be the saviour of English rugby and the new media face of it for the WC. He’s being setup for a huge fall and I can’t help but think that SL is contributing to (and looking desperate) by calling him up for the Saxons and now elite training when there are better RU centres than him in England currently.
A silver lining? The BBCs northern reporters who have a massive bias (chip) about RL being a better game than RU are now perhaps realising that RU is a pretty hard game with very, very good athletes playing it.
Its not really that surprising is it Brighty?
A superstar from one sport – possibly that sport’s best player – moves into an entirely new game to see if he can achieve the same success. Of course that’s of interest to the media.
The media’s job is to get people to read their papers, so which are they going to concentrate on? The details of a pretty awful international 2nd team game or the travails of a superstar trying to make it big in a different game?
As for SL calling him up, I think its good. It’ll give Burgess an idea of the standard he needs to achieve to make an impact at the top level and make it clear to him that there is work to be done
For me though Pablito I think SL would have nipped a lot of the hype in the bud by not pulling him up so fast – he’s feeding it by doing so (Guardian headline for their match write up “Sam Burgess makes winning start for England Saxons at Irish Wolfhounds”) and I don’t think this helps the progress of the player, regardless of his mental strength.
I don’t think he needs to play international rugby yet to see the standard needed. He’s not the best English centre in the club game yet so he can see he has plenty to work on at that level.
Yes, he didn’t embarrass himself and has hardly played RU. That’s nice but imo doesn’t indicate he’s going to reach the top level so I don’t see it’s worth the cost of putting him in when not ready to excel at that level, or the one below it.
Good points but until you stick him in that situation you can’t know how he will respond.
I remember people making much the same points about Jason Robinson when he first got called up. That seemed to work out ok
Agreed, don’t really understand the decision to play him at FH. He isn’t going to replace anyone in the pecking order when he doesn’t play 10 for his club and is playing excellently in the centres so why not play him in the centre? It thought it just deprived Cips/Myler a chance to stake a claim before next week.
There weren’t any other 10s in the Saxons, SL wasn’t going to risk one of the EPS FHs in a Saxon’s game.
simon, i agree re Ashton don’t know whether to blame the player for not practising more or coaches for not pushing him on it – shame as he is still one of the best finishers we have.
Can we not agree that deep down none of us really think that Lancaster is the man for the job and just have an end to it?
Over the last 6 months his confidence,decision making and selection policy have shown all the clarity of a foggy day in a coalmine with a subsequent knock on effect on the players.
Personally I wish he would fall on his sword before the WCup.The timing would be abysmal I agree but I genuinely fear that England are going to be bridesmaids at their own wedding come September with him in charge.
That must NOT be allowed to happen.
Teecee. Sorry can’t agree. I do disagree with some of what SL is doing but generally think he gets most things right, and England have gone from laughing stock to contender under him. I am behind him all the way to the RWC, and I will let the results there determine whether I want him to continue.
I thought Slade, Ewers and Kvesic were excellent. Also thought that Itoje did a great job after coming on so early. You could see the born leader in him coming out, as he just kept encouraging all the other players around him. All of the front row had a great game, but Thomas and Webber really stood out. Would quite like to see Webber in instead of Hartley at the moment, as I’m wondering how long he can stay on the pitch.
Could Slade possibly do a job at 12? On this sort of form, I would rather see him starting than 12T! Ford, Slade and Jospeh? Could be worse.
Also I didn’t think that Burgess really did much wrong. Certainly he wasn’t outstanding, but did anyone expect him to be? For a guy that’s played such a small amount of Union, I thought he looked ok. Still a work in progress, but worth getting him in early.
Ah,a voice of reason on the Burgess front, I also thought he did ok, yeah the long pass out to (was it Daly) was a bit wild, but I’ve seen passes thrown to touch in full internationals in the past and with the game having a bit of a barbarians feel to it, quite broken, not very fluent, unsurprising given that these guys don’t train together as much as the full senior squad, then the guy with the least experience is probably going to find it hardest to adapt!
Love seeing some of the classic English overreactions to every move any big name makes.
Feel for Burgess. Has made a brave move to come across to Union and his development has happened really quickly, as we all knew it would. I don’t think he has as bad a game as has been made out – although he wasn’t great. Still – right decision to pick him. We know he is a strong minded professional so I really don’t think he will dwell on a poorish performance. Still think exposing him constantly to a slightly higher level is the right call.
The SL bashing is madness. Looking at what he inherited it’s incredible that we are considered genuine contenders. England still have a very small number of caps heading into the WC but SL has done his best to rectify that. Our rugby isn’t scintillating, but that’s been an issue that goes back far beyond SL so to bash him for it is madness. He has made quite obvious attempts to expand Englands game and it tends to lead to us coming unstuck.
I agree with Staggy. SL seems to have stagnated a bit recently but the changes under him have been huge and nor has he always been conservative – plenty of young players have got their start under SL
Let’s see how he goes at the RWC before judging him
As for Sam Burgess, there are some pretty silly comments above. He didn’t shine for sure but neither was he anywhere near as poor as people are making out. Tall Poppy Syndrome – everyone is ready to cut him down without giving him a chance.
Its not like he was the only mediocre player amongst a sea of brilliant performances:
– His opposite number, D’Arcy (who I believe has more international caps than Burgess has minutes in RU) looked no better or worse.
– Both England hookers demonstrated that while they can run a bit with the ball, neither of them has the faintest clue how to do the basics of their role – i.e hook in the scrum and throw in straight at the line out.
– Lee Dickson showed he has no nous. If the ref is calling you for skewed put-ins Lee, put the damn ball in straight and stop trying to get away with it
– Elliot Daly for all his good work, threw away a gilt edged opportunity for a try with very poor decision making
– Chris Ashton proved that he still has absolutely no idea whatsoever how to tackle
Of course it was right to get Burgess experience at this level, just as it is right to take him to the England camp to get a flavour of it in the run up to the 6 Nations. This is a bloke who thrives on challenges and he now knows how much work he needs to put in to have an effect at the very top level.
I think its pretty amazing that after just 8 or so games of RU, Burgess can be put into a elite level game and not be a complete and utter liability. Let’s see where he is once he has more time under his belt – people forget that SBW didn’t just burst onto the international scene, but had a season with Toulon first.
I’d also like to see Burgess play in a much more flowing, less disrupted game
On another note, there were some ok performances. Henry Thomas looked good. Maro Itoje didn’t look out of place. Dave Ewers was very strong. Daly showed he can be a threat. Simpson demonstrated why he needs to be on the bench for the 6 Nations. Wade did what Wade does (although SL can’t see it) and should have started. Pennell should be 2nd behind Brown and Carl Fearns is a monster
Finally, the reffing performance demonstrated just how much rule-breaking teams get away with normally without being called on it.
Most of the comments on here mulling over the pros/cons of England’s performance but I was shocked, and I know that’s pretty strong, by how inept Ireland were in this game. I (and judging by Twitter many of their fans as well) expected a pretty strong win for them given the hype that this 2nd string would beat a fair few 1st strings such was the depth of talent in it. The shock wasn’t that they failed to win, it was the manner in which they failed to put together much of anything worth watching. Madigan surely will now sit out the 6Ns, needs more Leinster 10 time if he is really going to prove he can play there? SOB, even giving him benefit of being back from injury, showed what can happen when a big midfield and backrow is there to chop him down.
These impostors looked like a bunch of imposters. Brutal display – can only put it down to pussy-footing around so as not to get injured.
Just plain embarrassing.
DDD
Teecee
When I’ve said similar regds SL yonks back, I was castigated for regurgitating the same old, or being anti English or having a chip, yet here we are, with more of the same old, i.e., ‘Lanc bashing’. However, it’s diff not to comment when his name recurs. Objectively, his record doesn’t stand up. It’s little diff from that of Johnno’s, doesn’t compare with Joe Schmidt’s & after losing 6 in a row v the SH & 3+ yrs in charge, shouldn’t alarm bells be ringing? No point in talking lack of caps as this was his policy. Also the injury issue (& ALL the press, media are talking this UP!) is only an issue if he, or anyone else for that matter, lets it be so. England have stacks of players to call on. More than any country. Look @ the lists in the ‘A’ & ‘B’ squads. And injuries didn’t stop Ireland form winning the 6N last yr did the? In fact injury, IMO, can inadvertently help Lancaster. At least it may cause him e.g., to put Cipriani into the match day team! Maybe!? SL needs to settle (already should have ages ago!) on his style of game. what is it? running as in NZ of R1 as v Oz? Or, how about the revolutionary all round game with the options of doing either during a game depending on what’s in front of them & even reviewing the options each 1/4? His obfuscating sound bites & slogans are threadbare & it’s no good in England waiting to see what happens in the WC. It starts on Fri night! No pressure then.
I know ,I know! I cannot believe the number of English rugby fans who are adopting the “ostrich position” They all remind me of Lancaster actually!
We are 11 months out from the biggest tournament in the game and people are seriously suggesting we don’t judge the poor chap until we lose the bloody thing.
If that is being a proud ,patriotic English rugby fan then I don’t want to be one.
As has been stated countless times,Woodwards England were virtually unbeatable at the same stage in ’03 and no one wanted to play them. Now we have this insipid,faux patrotic crap from individuals with VERY short memories. Maybe they all work for the RFU who suffer from success phobia.
And please don’t accuse me of living in the past. Love him or loathe him Sir Clive revolutionised th
way the England team prepared,mentally and physically. More to the point, it worked!
Anyone and I mean anyone who genuinely thinks that Lancaster’s England are one of the favourites for September is a candidate for the funny farm. Home advantage will carry them so far but winners? not a prayer.
Now I’ll sit and wait for the backlash of the blind leading the bind.
Just for the record I am desperate to be proved wrong over this. Nothing would give me greater pleasure than to see Robshaw holding the Webb Ellis trophy aloft.
It’s just that I live in the real world.
Teecee, I think it is you who might have the short memory, SCW took six years and two attempts to build a world cup winning side, SL has so far had three and a bit years and is approaching his first shot at the world cup, timescales might be slightly different, but if you want to compare the two then you perhaps ought to use the same yardstick? And p.s. no I don’t think that England will win this autumn, 2019 is likely to be a much better shot
I should have added that just because we don’t win this autumn, doesn’t mean I think that SL is useless and should be sacked as a failure either.
Firstly I am an England fan and am happy that we won. So my gripe must be taken in the context of someone who isn’t a bitter loser but one who enjoys watching a good game of rugby.
As we know, The Saxons and The Wolfhounds are relics from the much missed ‘A’ team days. Thus they are teams who get together rarely and in such enviroments cohesion and fluency struggle to flourish. When I tuned in on Friday night what I hoped to see was a game in which both sets of players were empowered with the chance to play and express themselves in the hope of senior team recognition.
Instead what we got was an exhibition of over-zelous (albeit mostly correct!) refereeing which, within 20 minutes had killed any chance of fluency or an enjoyable game.
The media seem to refer to rugby in the context of the ‘brand’ and entertainment. I understand that refs are under serious scrutiny these days but I felt that Friday night the only person who truely expressed himself was the referee, which defeats the point and kills the brand.
I find the refereeing of that game an interesting point.
After all, it wasn’t the ref making things up. He was giving penalties for people breaking the laws. If they weren’t breaking the laws, he wouldn’t be using his whistle.
Shouldn’t the question be – why didn’t the players adapt to the ref? – rather than the other way around
And if every single referee without exception started to officiate in exactly the same way, then surely it wouldn’t be long before the players had to actually start abiding by the rules (or at least much more so than they do at the moment)?
And wouldn’t we then see scrums that hold up and are a fair contest for the ball, re-starts where half the team aren’t acting as NFL-style blockers, defensive off-side lines adhered to and above all, breakdowns that are cleared quickly without the customary morass of players laying all over the ball?
And wouldn’t the result of all this be a faster, more attractive game?
I don’t think the SL bashing is ridiculous. The messages were clear in the AIs. England expect a very, very high level of performance and results. 3 from 4, when you’re playing all 3 of the big 3, was expected whereas 2 from 4 would have been seen to be staid or even regression (e.g. not beating SA was seen as such by some).
If SL was the Welsh coach he’d be pretty highly rated – SH wins, some good performances and some decent new blood. He’d get grief for being unable to decide on a centre pairing with his main option injured (lack of a “plan B” as it’s called when Gats gets grief) but overall the results would secure his tenure.
In England these results are broadly not seen as good enough for a team with designs on winning the WC. Because of this all of his other problems are magnified – the lack of a developed centre pairing, the management accountancy speak, the emphasis on getting grown men to behave which makes him look like a schoolteacher, the constant references to culture which far outnumber the references to rugby.
if you think you’re one of the best teams in the world (i.e. top 3) then no, SL hasn’t demo’d his good enough. If you want to be one of the top 8 (and with the best will in the world that is still my aspirations for Wales i.e. solid QF contenders, maybe a semi if we get a roll on and excel*) then it’d be great.
*I reserve the right to change my mind about this when the WC comes around and the excitement gets the better of me and I deliriously imagine us footballing our way to the final….
Interestng points Brighty. I guess htey sum up how I have viewed SL. He has done well with a team that was heading for 6th or lower in the rankings. There was a need to focus on culture and being a schoolteacher when he took over. That said, it is not the ultimate aim.There must surely come a point if we are to head firmly into the top 3 in the world when these things are a given. They are not discussed, but assumed. We talk about the rugby, the skills, the mental preparation and strength.
I have been disappointed that SL has not been able to pick a centre pairing. But, I am slightly forgiving in that despite a large player pool, no centres have really stepped up. As fans we largely get obsessed by attacking play. but if you look around at the best teams and their centres they consistently defend well and kick there points. The Cip’s, Ford’s, Joseph’s, Daly’s, Ashtons, etc, are all excellent attacking players, but have consistently shown weaknesses in either kicking, defence or both. Even 36 and Burrell have been exposed defensively.
Only this season have Cip, Ford and Joseph really shown consistency in their game to really warrant international call up.
Wales are unusually lucky in that you have at least three centres (Roberts, JD2, S Williams) who do not appear to have a weakness. Strong in defence, quick and powerfull in attacka nd have good handling and passing. Not saying they are the best in the world, but they are comfortably international standard.
I am not sure England have any one player with all of that. Not an excuse, because we should, but a statement.
Is this the fault of Clubs or Country?
“There must surely come a point if we are to head firmly into the top 3 in the world when these things are a given. They are not discussed, but assumed.”
Exactly. I am amazed that 3 years after the dwarf tossing tour SL is still getting plaudits for keeping his players focused on their professional roles. How long will he have that free pass?
Gats inherited a basket case of a squad that overruled their coach’s wishes to such an extent that they got dumped out of the world cup by Fiji. The ringleader of that group had a meltdown on live TV that nearly ended in a brawl with a TV presenter. There were cliques within cliques, leaders dismissing young players, fitness regimes being ignored, etc. He dumped a lot of players from that group. He cracked the whip, stopped the drinking culture and made it clear who was in charge. He promoted some incredibly young boys into the 1st team to replace those.
Within a year we had a slam.
The average expectations on SL are for a WC final at home. I don’t think it’s daft to question his ability to deliver that given his track record and when most of his media involvement seems to be about things other than the act of playing rugby.
I think you’ve summed up quite well why I have a lot of sympathy for SL. Yes he has made some strange decisions along the way, but his main issue has always been at centre where there are no obvious answers even now.
Right now, even if everyone was fit, I have no idea who I’d pick. With all the injuries (Tuilagi) and loss of form (JJ) along the way – it has been very difficult for him.
Is that his fault? Should he have nailed down two options and stuck with it?
However I massively agree that the schoolteacher act is no longer relevant. Great job sorting out the culture but that was fine a year ago so I don’t care anymore, it’s a given.
More progress is definitely needed, and everything isn’t perfect, but I struggle to blame SL for most the issues we have going into this 6 nations.
Teecee, Liono
Regds SCW, he also took the Lions to record defeat in 05, so, like ‘Geech’ with the later Lions in SA, he was, IMO, past his sell by, by then. The rest of the world (SH?) had moved on & countered England after 03, who then cited ‘injuries & retirements’ for falling over. Sound familiar? It’s early days yet in terms of Ireland’s & Scotland’s SH coaches’ journeys, but I can’t help but believe that if England had a change in mindset (or the confidence & BELIEF to play an all round game… as required) & forget the fear of playing ‘hi risk’ rugger, as in reality this is just a misguided distraction. However SL is a hand picked ‘company’ man. Never going to rock the RFU boat or commit many TV gaffes, but his being long on rhetoric & short on meaningful results has come back to bite him in his Cumbrian rear. He seems muddled in his thinking on what type of game to play, when or where or even whom to pick in pivotal possi’s, e.g., open side, fly1/2 (what if Ford gets crocked & will he stand up with the hair dryer full on?), 1/2 back & the now hackneyed centres. Someone once blogged here that it was no good castigating O. Farrell for the way he played, as he seemed to suit the kicking/tackling type of game that Lancaster picked him for. Same goes for Lancaster, to some extent anyway, as his coaching ‘style’ suited the RFU. However, the buck will stop with SL, NOT the RFU, who can simply sack him if the WC goes badly. Of course all this is not to say that it’s an inevitable race for England to be the 1st lemming off the (6N/WC) cliffs (or was that Thelma & Louise?), as they will likely put out 100%, but, will it be enough under Lancs? Fri night should shed some light.
Pablito
Regds reffing, Kiwi, Gareth Anscome, brighty’s fav team’s new ‘saviour’, has said that NH refs tend to ‘favour ‘D’, rather than attack’. Maybe it would help the game here if ref’s were made aware of this ‘style’ this… if what Anscome says is true.
Or Don – they could just apply the rules, without favouring either defense or attack. That would be a novelty.
The blatant breaking of the laws that happens now would soon disappear if every ref performed like this one did
Pablito
Agree. If rules were applied uniformly & globally, they should cut out transgressions like, for instance, the crooked scrum feed, lying on for too long in the tackle or not releasing the ball ‘instantly’ after placing it following a tackle, not supporting body weight @ ruck. A few bugbears for me. The IRB (WR) needs to take a firm & CONSISTENT line here as rules simply lapse due to lack of will on their & also refs’ parts. I’d furthermore involve TMOs in over riding or ‘correcting’ refs as they miss too much. The latter idea is not so popular though I think, as apparently, it would ‘waste’ too much time – although arguably not as much as collapsing scrums do, i.e., on average 10 mins a game? Another concern for me is the sometimes huge discrepancy in home & away penalty counts. Do away teams not know the rules as well as the home teams? This is surely an issue which too needs addressing. IMO refs should NOT affect results as much as they do.