The RFU today confirmed that head coach Stuart Lancaster has stepped down as England head coach by mutual consent.
The decision came after a meeting between CEO Ian Ritchie and Lancaster in the wake of the RFU’s official review, in which they agreed that he should step down – a decision that was subsequently ratified by the board.
England have come in for intense speculation following their exit from the World Cup, becoming the first host nation to be knocked out in the group stages following losses to Wales and Australia.
Stuart Lancaster said, “I am obviously extremely saddened to finish the way we did in this World Cup and to step down from the role. As I have always said, I ultimately accept and take responsibility for the team’s performance and we have not delivered the results we all hoped for during this tournament. I did, however, want to take part in the review to ensure I understood the views of others before making a decision. The reality is that, while many aspects of the review were very positive, we didn’t achieve success on the field when it mattered and we all have to take responsibility for that but me especially as head coach.”
“I took on the role in difficult circumstances and it has been a huge challenge to transition the team with many hurdles along the way. However, I am immensely proud of the development of this team and I know that there is an incredibly strong foundation for them to progress to great things in the future. We have played some excellent rugby and it was always going to be tough to get the right level of experience into them in time for 2015. It is a young group of players with the huge majority available for the Rugby World Cup in Japan in 2019, where I believe their recent experience will make them genuine contenders.”
“I would like to thank the players, coaches, management and everyone at the RFU for their commitment, support and hard work in my time as head coach. But most of all, I would like to thank the England rugby fans, who have always backed us and given us amazing support. The team feels a close connection with everyone across the grassroots game, which has been important to us all.”
Ian Ritchie, RFU CEO added, ”The Rugby World Cup was hugely disappointing for everyone associated with the England team and the subsequent review into the team’s performance was always intended to be extremely comprehensive, which it has been. Stuart has been fully involved and has given feedback as well as the other coaches, players, management and a wide variety of people from around the game. Following the review, Stuart and I met, where we agreed that he should step down as head coach. This was subsequently ratified by the RFU Board.”
“On behalf of all fans of the England team and the RFU I would like to express our gratitude to Stuart for all he has done for England Rugby since taking the role in 2012. Despite the results during this World Cup he has much to be proud of, and has embedded a new group of players that will be representing England for a long time to come. Looking forward, we will leave no stone unturned to ensure England achieves sustained success in the future.”
The new head coach will continue to report into the CEO, who will now lead the process for recruitment, beginning immediately. Who would get your backing to be the new England coach?
Photo by: Patrick Khachfe / Onside Images
Hallelujah!!!
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The right decision. Time to move on.
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Hallelujah! So Stuart and Ritchie can make a good decision when they need to. Lets hope Andy Farrell isn’t the interim coach or that Jake White gets anywhere near the long term gig. A bit perplexed by this quote:
“while many aspects of the review were very positive”
I can only assume that this came from ar5e covering sycophants like Wood and Haskell.
Let us hope they have identified a new coach and will move swiftly. As Gatland showed in 2008, success can be achieved in a small timescale. Let’s hope Edwards hasn’t yet signed an extension, as I’d be happy for him to come home and serve his country in some capacity.
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Just as well the same halfwits were not in charge in 1999 after that RWC.
Just puts the shit cherry on the poo icing that was the crap cake that was England in 2015.
At least SL comes out with dignity and honour.
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“At least SL comes out with dignity and honour.”
Does he though? If he’d fallen on his sword immediately after England’s exit, or even in the few days after the final, that would be true. The timing of this suggests to me that he has spent the past few weeks negotiating a lumpy Compromise Agreement, which, considering the unnecessarily long contract extension he blagged just ahead of the RWC, I suspect is probably quite lumpy indeed. Having said that, I can’t blame him for doing this; having negotiated that security blanket he’d be mad not to make the most of it.
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Interesting to see what happens to his back room staff. From England’s point of view I agree with Benjit about Farrell. From Wales’ (and indeed, anyone else’s) point of view I hope he’s given the job full time!
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Need a wholesale clear out to get rid of the taint of failure altogether.
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My only hope is that whoever takes over already has an eye on some players to bring in who can take the team forward.
There are so many players who’ve stuck their hands up over the past few years but haven’t got anywhere near the EPS, and a few players who’ve been in the squad despite never being the best in their position.
Upwards and onwards!!
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Who comes in now? From a personal point of view – would love to see Wayne Smith involved, and maybe Alex King from Northampton (backs and skills coaches respectively?).
Forwards coach is the tricky one, massive respect for Rowntree and think maybe our pack’s failure wasn’t because of him. Think there was a lot of pressure for our front five to streamline themselves to be more mobile, but in the process lost a huge amount in the tight – especially at scrum time. Think he could still be the right guy to take us forward.
Head coach is the tricky one. Eddie Jones maybe?
Eddie Jones, Wayne Smith, Alex Kind and Rowntree together certainly have the capability to do good things.
Moving forward: find us a proper 7 (Robshaw can compete for the 6 shirt). Think Brown becomes captain. Sort out the set piece and tight play. Get some of the long term prospects into the side – Slade has to play 12, maybe Itoje at 6.
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Borthwick for forwards coach. If he can make the Japanese scrummage and line-out like that he should be able to make England decent.
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Agreed – Jones, Smith, King and Borthwick would be a good mix – I was never a fan of Borthwick the player, but he was a player who made the most of his abilities though learning every nuance of the game and applying himself, and this appears to have translated well into coaching
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Perfect coaching combination.Current lot on a different planet to your suggestion
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Totally agree with you Graf. Him and Jones together would be even better!!
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‘I would like to thank the England rugby fans, who have always backed us and given us amazing support’
Sadly not true.
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Growing up in the 70s I’ll leave a Pete Ham inspired ode as Stu exits the car crash stage left.
‘Oh I can’t forget the feeling on your face as you were leaving but I guess that just the way the story goes.
You always smile but in your eyes your sorrow shows………….yes it shows……..
I can’t win…… if England is coached by you …… I can’t win….. ……I can’t win anything………
I can’t win…….. if England is coached by you…….. I can’t win…..I can’t win ……anything.’
Cheer yourselves up with a copy of ……….
‘House of Lancaster-how one humble stout hearted man rebuilt English rugby from the rubble on RWC 2011 and then red rose to the dizzy heights of RWC 2015 Pool A elimination’
Pub Aug 2015
4 for £ at the local branch of The Works sometime very soon.
PS I see Little Ford is slagging off Super Sam ……just like his daddy is.
Will this be the next England father/son coach/player double act????
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Great news. Hoping whoever comes in next confirms that he knows Robshaw isn’t an openside and that Barritt is not an international centre. Both can compete for the 6 shirt and tackle all day.
Personally I hope the whole coaching staff leave. Farrell is clearly a good defense coach but got far too big for his boots by all accounts so needs to go. Hopefully we can steal Edwards from Wales.
Catt seemed to add nothing so needs to go. Rowntree took the pack backwards sadly, and has to take responsibility for that.
Eddie Jones would be my first choice. Would love to see Wayne Smith replace Catt as skills/backs coach. Edwards defense coach and I would like Rob Baxter as forwards coach; maybe in a dual role so he can stay coaching Exeter? I think long term Baxter could then be groomed to take the role post-2019.
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Any room for Paul Gustard?
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Do the English fans not see value in having an English coach in charge? Agree with you all that Eddie Jones is a great coach but I thought he was off to take the Stormers role? Personally would quite like the idea of someone like Steve Diamond to take on the role. Also think he has the personality and charisma to get everyone in line.
Farrell has to go although as above think Rowntree has not been at great fault during the world cup and therefore has a reasonable right to stay.
Ultimately though a shambles for the RFU and England Rugby. Lets hope we can replicate Australia et al and find some form in a short period of time!
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Diamond can’t even take Sale into the top four in the Premiership. We need a coach who is not invested in a Premiership team, so will not pick players he already knows.
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Steve Diamond??? Ffs, no.
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Alex
Don’t you see that, @ present @ least, you just CAN’T have an English coach!? Their thinking is simply TOO limited.
Whose tight forwards are running approp lines & off loading like backs? You have to get better fwd athletes into the England set up who CAN expand their skills & there4 their & E’land’s game.
This also applies to the midfield which is a fudge. ‘D’ is okish, but again, where’s the innovation on attack to unpick the top 3 @ Int’al level, because this is what’s req’ed?
Too much grunt, not enough drilled SKILLS or thinking on the hoof 4 me.
Teams like Sarries rep the worst of this lack of innovation, but because they have sufficient dosh & Int’als, they win in English conditions only. I mean when has an English club last won the Euro Cup?
England have unltd resources, so there is a severe fault line that needs to fixing. Much depends on who, what, how, when, where & why they pick (him) to do so.
But the ? is will they & esp the flawed thinker Ritchie, get it right this time?
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Yes unfortunately I agree that we are breeding a certain type of rugby that doesn’t necessarily allow for expansive rugby.
I think that the pressure will force them abroad. Whether he will get it right or not is a different matter.
I saw a Brendan Gallagher tweet which brought it home: Next England Coach to be appointed by a CEO with no rugby knowledge. CEO will be his line manager. Same CEO that gave SL a 6 year contract last year.
Doesn’t bode well does it…
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Although tbf most of the criticism of the English style of play that so limits England is aimed at Saracens, a club coached by a Northern Irish man.
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Probably had to go. Hopefully history will judge him as establishing some key young players and getting them plenty of caps at a young age.
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New coaching team?
Robbie Deans/Eddie Jones – Head Coach
Dean Ryan – Assistant Coach
Steve Borthwick – Forwards
Wayne Smith/Alex King – Attack
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Here’s a template for the new coach to follow:
No more Brad Barritt, James Haskell, Owen Farrell (at centre).
Pick players who know what they are doing at centre and ensure Luther Burrell & Kyle Eastmond don’t hot foot it to France.
Give Christian Wade, Danny Cipriani and Elliott Daly the chance they deserve.
Picking a competitive number no.7.
Players picked on merit not ‘Money in the bank’.
A bench with game changers on it rather than the same currently on the pitch.
A willingness to roll the dice and take a chance when the game is in the balance.
Andy Farrell dropped like a hot potato.
The RFU need to make a permanent selection NOW not a interim selection, the road to 2019 starts here, its just a pity Michael Chieka is in a job……
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The best thing the RFU can do is give up the national team to a professional body run on the behalf of RFU but without any influence from the RFU based on a four year contracted cycle binding so that it cannot be removed until the contract is up for renewal (ie, what Woodward wanted post 2003). Let the RFU concentrate on what it does best, ie grassroots amateur rugby and administrating Twickenham.
Who do I get to run England Rugby?
Quite simply don’t look too far beyond 2003. Dallaglio, Wilkinson and Greenwood would be my choices to take over the running of the national team. Three intelligent guys, media adept, and with the confidence not only of the players, but the RFU and pro clubs.
As for coaches it needs to be a coach (es) who ask the players to work differently.
For too long we have asked how do we stop a team, instead of what do we do to make a team stop us.
We need a coach who allows the players to make desicions. There is no such thing as a wrong desicion other than making no desicion. We need to lose the fear and we need to find players who will play with joy.
My cv is in the post to TW1…
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“My cv is in the post to TW1…”
Yay another England head coach with no first class experience and an obsession with Sarries style of play
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I don’t have an obsession with Sarries style of play but do recognise it’s proven success…
However, joking aside, my philosophy would be (which I hope the new coach does…)
1. Stop the preoccupation with stopping other teams playing and develop the style(s) which make the other teams worry about stopping England
2. Create a culture in which players are released to make desicions (there is only one wrong desicion which is no desicion) and remove the fear of doing something because it isn’t in the plan
3. Put the emphasis on the performance, enjoyment and freedom. Winning will come from not having the pressure of winning being the be all and end all.
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yes I know, but their style of play is based around the training, culture and structure of the club and therefore doesn’t translate too well to the international stage where you have players from outside that system.
4. Settle on a style of play and select the best players in each position to execute that style of play
5. Have a back up style of play and select players on the bench capable of changing the game when they come on if plan A isn’t going your way (not like for like swaps)
Culture is all well and good but what England need is a master tactician
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‘Sarries style of play but do recognise it’s proven success’…In England only.
And that’s part of the English problem, domestically & (NH) Int’ally.
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/european-rugby/11993367/Saracens-are-the-only-English-team-that-has-a-chance-in-the-European-Champions-Cup.html
Although nota Torygraph reader myself this was posted to me. Will Greenwood, whose opinion I rate very highly, has got it spot on about Saracens.
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I’m steeling myself for the announcement of Andy Farell as head coach…
Seriously though, who would want the role? With the power of the clubs and media hacks ever ready to stick the knife in, its getting to be a nigh on an impossible job
I can only think the RFU will have to throw so much cash at it that the amount on offer will make Sam Burgess look like good value.
In which case, I’ll go for Jacob’s set-up. Jones, Baxter, W Smith & Edwards. Although seeing Borthwick, King or Conor O’Shea involved somehow would also please me
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Oh god Farrell as head coach that’s enough to turn any Polar Bear cold.
Imagine it Tom Young’s and Dylan Hartley patrolling the wings, Brad Barritt as captain, Owen first name on the team sheet and allowed to pick where he plays, Sam Burgess recalled to Union only to stand in the middle of the pitch arms folded with a big sticky out sulky lip……
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Edwards has extended his Wales contract to post 2019
Steve Borthwick has signed to coach with Bristol
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Didn’t realise Edwards had re-signed, when did that happen? Did all the Wales staff re-sign?
I knew about Borthwick, but I think if England came calling I’m sure he’d be released.
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I didn’t think it’s quite official yet, but apparently Gatland is confident that he’s staying.
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That was the recommendation from Gatlands review, but has it actually happened? That would be quick if so. After 8 yrs and a chance to coach his own country I can see Edwards being interested. Give him complete control of the Saxons in addition to a defence role with the main set up to give him a more influential role.
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Simonrug, western mail reporter on Twitter, indicated it was a done deal in early Nov so I was going by that.
The main reason he went to Wales in the first place was the perceived “snub” of being offered the Saxons role. He’s not going to leave 2nd in command at Wales, with boys he loves, for 2nd in command somewhere else.
Josh Lewsey has just announced he is leaving his “elite performance ” role with the WRU. I wonder if there is any link in that timing?
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Not saying it will happen Brighty, but it could. Edwards is at the end of the day is a passionate Englishman, and has in the past expressed an ambition to coach England. Is he number 2 at Wales? Howely given the caretaker job during the lions and McBryde got the gig for the tour to Japan. Seems like he is down the pecking order. If he is given a genuine number 2 with England, plus given a leading role with the Saxons (which is now far more connected to the senior team than in 2008) then yes, I think it would tempt him.
However if we don’t get him, I’d be more than happy with Gustard from Sarries, as long as he has no influence over selection *cough* Barritt *cough*!
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Can I add to that Benjit?
*cough* Goode *cough*
*cough* Wigglesworth *cough*
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Hell yes!
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We’ll bring the wrath of Jez down upon us at this rate
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Sorry lads, but as another Sarries fan (yes there’s more than one) who would you have preferred to Goode as back up for Brown?
Foden is injured more often than not, and hadn’t found his previous form since returning from last injury.
Pennell was playing in the Championship, and although a very good player, not playing at the highest level every week.
I would’ve been happy to see Watson as the back up 15, with Nowell or May on the bench to cover wing, but aside from that not sure who we had?
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Hallelujah Dazza!
We need to accept that this is the start of a four year cycle to Japan 2019. Mike Brown is 30 years old now s9 will he still be viable for 4 years time, I’d suggest not.
Therefore the next coach needs to build a team of players aged between 21 and 25, give them as much exposure to international rugby as possible (whilst accepting that the performance in the first 18 to 24 months is more important than the result) creating a squad of players in 2019 with between 25 and 75 caps. Therefore, as it stands your two full backs should probably be Goode and Watson with perhaps Pennal knocking on the door.
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Watson, May and Nowell all can play 15. Cipriani can cover 15? Not to mention Elliott Daly.
Personally I like Goode, but he has to play with very specific players (bundles of pace) otherwise his style of play can sometimes limit a back line.
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For the RWC, I’d have had my fullback pecking order as Brown, Watson, Nowell, Pennell (chamiponship or not), Cipriani, Goode, Daly
Going forward for me, it would be Brown as the incumbent but gradually bringing in Pennell and Watson to take over from him
Goode should be only considered for the international team in emergencies. A fine club player but not international grade. Can you ever imagine him making the selection for teams such as NZ or Australia?
I always thought he’d make a better fly-half than a full-back
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In order of preference:
Brown
Watson
Foden
Pennell
Daly
Nowell
Abendanon (Exceptional circumstances ruling with 6 other full backs ruled out)
Homer
Cook
Hammersley
Goode
Whoever is left standing
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oops forgot Cipriani, stick him after Pennell
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Gatland’s NOT the answer 4 England. Major flaw in adaptability to situations, e.g.,v 13 man Oz in the WC.
Prob is that there seems only ‘old guard’ type coaches available.
Someone like JS would have been a probable answer, but (as below), I’d go for someone like Dave Rennie.. & let him have complete freedom.
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Can’t help but believe that this a bad decision in letting Lancaster go. Woodward failed poorly at his first attempt but was left in place to build a winning side, which he never lets anybody forget, learning from his mistakes at his first attempt. Certainly don’t want to see Farrell shoehorned into the role of head coach as this will, IMO, lead to more of the same selections; ie son at 10, great for kicking a way to victory, Burgess and Barrettesk type centres smashing up the middle looking for the kickable penalties. Rugby fans are notorious for having short memories and have forgotten that Lancaster selected a side that put 55 points on a France side with a very creative backline and only lost out by points difference for the championship. The pool of players regardless of who is Head coach will be the same for the forthcoming 6 nations. Is the appointment of a ‘new’ coach at this time going to improve England’s chances of secure a 6 nations championship, doubtful.
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There is no comparison to Woodward. England were in a very different place before SCW joined and after the 1999 RWC to Lancaster’s England.
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The point is it took Woodward six years to build a winning squad/team, not three and a bit years, not second chances Brighty.
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It didn’t take Woodward 6 years to win a World Cup. We were arguably stronger in 2001/2002. There just wasn’t a World Cup for us to judge us on in those years.
But in 2000 we won the Six Nations, shared an away series against South Africa and went 3-0 in the Autumn series (Australia, Argentina and South Africa).
In 2001 we won the Six Nations and beat Australia and South Africa (and Romania?) at home again (as well as a 3-0 win in North America when the Lions were on).
In 2002 we narrowly missed out on the Six Nations, but beat Argentina away and New Zealand, South Africa and Australia at home on consecutive weeks.
Yes, the World Cup win was in 2003 after 6 years. But by 2000 (3 years in charge), Woodward was getting positive results. Not losing games in the Autumn series, Six Nations Championships and getting wins in the Southern Hemisphere. Contrast that with Lancaster, who after 4 years has failed to meet any of those benchmarks (no Autumn clean sweeps, no Championships and no wins in the SH).
Maybe he’s learnt something, and maybe he would have been the right choice to carry on. But he’s started from so far behind and we’ve blown a home World Cup because of it. Unfair that he carries the can all by himself, but if there is a top candidate who’s showing interest (and I refuse to believe the RFU hasn’t sounded anyone out since the Australia game), then you can see why we might go in a different direction.
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This second chance thing is hilarious. Most people fail on the first time because they’re simply not good enough which is the case with SL.
Give me the job. I guarantee I will screw it up on the first attempt so that must make a sure thing to win it on my second.
Rugby fans have the opposite of a short memory regarding SL. It is exactly because he picked an attacking side for the 6Ns but a defensive one for the World Cup that they want him gone.
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its not a short memory Maddog, Burrell was a, if not the lynch pin in that campaign, he had one iffy game against Ireland in the warm ups, Lancaster soiled himself and Burrell is dropped for a player who doesn’t play centre for his club on top of that our bench lacked a severe amount of variety all of the players on the bench for every single game did exactly the same job as those out on the pitch.
Also his insistence to go to the past in Haskell & Easter was poor selection, Waldrom wouldn’t have been a point to the future but he was top try scorer in the Premiership and was overlooked, same goes for Christian Wade, yes he’s small but imagine the impact on a tiring defence he could’ve had off the bench.
If your knackered and see the back of a certain player who you have contained for 60 minutes, nothing pleases you more than to see said player mark 2 come onto the pitch but seeing Wade for May, Slade/Cipriani for Ford worries oppositions, all have a x-factor and offer something different.
The decision is made, the dust has settled and on we go.
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You may be well named?
Botom line. Lancs has taken England to 8th, won NO silver & lost 6 on the trot to the SH. They’re worse now than when he took over. Compare with JS, MC.
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Let’s hold the celebrations guys, Jake White is the bookies favourite. A limited coach who is well past his best IMO. So no doubt the RFU will snap him up.
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Interesting. What makes you think that about Jake White? My main concern with him would be whether he would be able to match the more successful style of play that is coming to the fore at the moment. His 2007 SA didn’t exactly play in the style of a NZ, Aus or even Arg of today.
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Jake White’s name has been bought up every time there are questions over the England coach for about a decade now.
I’d rather he didn’t make the running. He’s not coached internationally since 2007 and the game has moved on since then. He did well at the Brumbies and OK at the Sharks but hasn’t stayed anywhere for long.
He’s now at Montpellier, who given they sacked Ledesma, seem to have questionable judgment!
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His successes have come when he has allied himself with visionary coaches – Jones for the wc win and Larkham at the Brumbies, otherwise he has a patchy track record, and was almost fired a year before the 07 world cup before getting Jones onboard.
If White does get it, then my enthusiasm will depend very much on who his support team is. Lancaster COULD have been a success had he not surrounded himself by novice coaches, likewise I think Johnson could have been a success had he not been so loyal to Wells and Ford. So we will just have to wait an see. At least White has a rep that might not put off experienced coaches working under him.
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Dave Rennie’s name is in the mix – he’d be a good call
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A great call – but doesn’t have that magic ‘proven international success’ that the RFU kept going on about… I think it would be a mistake not to consider him
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Not my wrath, but…
The one thing the next England coach, whoever he may be, needs to do, is pick on form.
Now say what you like the Saracens players who are being ‘blamed’ almost exclusively, are playing in a team that at present are undefeated in the league.
I do agree that Barritt has probably had his chance and his time is up. But I wouldn’t put Burrell, based on his form for Saints, in ahead of him.
Were I too pick an England team at the moment I’d probably pick
1. Vunipola
2. George
3. Brooke
4. Launchbury
5. Itoje
6. Ewers
7. Kevsic
8. Vunipola
9. Care
10. Farrell
11. May
12. Slade
13. Eastmond
14. Nowell
15. Goode
16. Cowan – Dickie
17. Marler
18. Coles
19. Kruis
20. Fraser
21. Morgan
22. Youngs
23. Ford
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Apart form Farrell who I would not even have on the bench ( need Ford or Cipriani to get the best out of Slade and Eastman) you would get my vote as the next England Coach
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Well thank you Maddog. Although I do think with that centre partnership you do need a more ‘steadying’ influence at 10 which Farrell does give you. Plus he is in good form for his club (he pushed Saints all over the park on Saturday).
(I’ll keep quiet about the fact I’d make him skipper too…)
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Not a bad team, but I would have Simpson/ Cipriani @ 9 and 10, either Joseph, Daly or Tuilagi at 13 and Watson at 15. Revert to a traditional 4/ split (drop either Morgan or Fraser depending on the strategy) and get Wade on the bench. Do I trust Wade defensively over 80 minutes. No I do not. But if there is one player I would bet my house on to win a game out of nothing, then it would be Wade.
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Daly came close to selection, Joseph and Tuilagi need to get back to fitness and in form (and Tuilagi would need to convince me of his behaviour)
As I said I’ve picked on form, and whereas Farrell has played well in all his games so far both Ford and Cipriani have blown hot and cold. Cips I don’t think is the answer at all, and as I’ve also got one eye on the future being over 25 is not his side either.
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No room left to reply to the previous post, but Goode is now 27! So I think we would have to leave him out as well. We have an opportunity to bring in some of the other guys who played in the U20’s over recent years. As Jacob pointed out above, Nowell, May, Watson and Daly can all play 15.
Look at the Aussie and NZ back line. They both had players who could slot in at fly half, centre, wing or full back without skipping a beat. Giteau, Beale, Ashley-Cooper, Toomua, Barrett, Smith etc etc!!
This is why players like Slade, Watson, Nowell, May, Daly, JJ and others like them need to be involved in the England squad and make up the bulk of the back line. Brown and Foden have both done a job on the wing before for England, but we have so many other choices it makes you wonder why?
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“Goode is now 27! So I think we would have to leave him out as well…”
More like Goode is useless and I can name 5 better options at 15 so we would have to leave him out as well
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Not sure about Goode with the form Brown is in; and no Watson as well? He was our best back during the WC along with Brown and both come out?
Also not sure how Hartley misses out, the WC taught us how valuable he is.
I’d go:
Vunipola, Hartley, Brookes, Launchbury, Lawes, Ewers, Kvesic, Vunipola, Youngs, Ford, May, Slade, JJ, Watson, Brown
George, Corbs, Cole, Itoje, Morgan, Care, Farrell, Wade
Agree that Wade could be a strong bench option, as is Care. Farrell brings balance to the bench and is the master of closing games out. Itoje I’m sure will start in time either at lock or 6 but I’d like to see him integrated from the bench.
I think Slade and JJ are a bit lightweight in attack, Tuilagi comes in to pair one of the two if fit.
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I’m not sure the WC taught us how valuable Hartley is to the team, more that the coach should trust the players he’s selected. George is more than capable of playing as well, if not better than Hartley, but sadly SL didn’t give him the chance.
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I’m not sure about that. George is definitely a fantastic talent but Hartley still walks into any England team that I’m putting together. George and LCD are certainly the future for England in that position but I expect Hartley to have the 2 shirt for a few years yet.
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If we’re building for the future though we need to get these players in now. Not wait until two weeks before the next major tournament, when Hartley gets banned for biting, punching or headbutting a player or swearing at an official, and our next option is either useless or has no international experience.
Hartley is 29! I would hope with talents like George and LCD, Hartley will not have the shirt for a few years.
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Hartley is no more, simple as along with Wood, Robshaw and possibly Dan Coles.
Your three hooker, in order at mo are George, LCD, Youngs.
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Why would Hartley be no more? Equally why would you dismiss any of those three? Wood and Robshaw are good, if not very good, international flankers. Absolutely other players should get a chance to see if they can fall into the “exceptional” bracket. Cole just needs his form back.
But Hartley… he’s still the best hooker we have and in his prime for a front row player. Best set piece hooker we have, in fact possibly the best set piece hooker in the world. He has 3 yellow cards in 60 England caps; before anyone says his discipline will let England down, he has always been fine on that front for England.
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Since when is 29 old? This is confusing me about Brown as well. They’re professional athletes, Brown is just 30.
George and LCD should be getting plenty of caps over the next few years, but the constant shunting out of players too early causes us more harm than good. We don’t need another clear out of players. A transition over the next few years where the like of George and LCD can learn from Hartley is the ideal situation. They can have the number 2 shirt when they are better than Hartley, not because they are younger and might be one day. Now a debate as to whether George is ahead of Hartley right now is a fair one; but it’s close and for me Hartley still edges it.
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What are they going to learn from Hartley? Headbutt techniques? Indiscipline? Answering back?
I’d suggest Jamie George learnt more from Schalk Brits and John Smit than he’ll ever learn from Hartley.
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I’m not saying that Hartley is a bad player or that 29 is old. But with his track record of getting banned before major tournaments or tours are not great. Add to that he will be 33 at the next WC!? Why keep going with him (and Youngs/Webber for that matter), when we can get other players bedded in now, so that in four years time, they will be as good if not better!?
I would say this applies to the whole team. This is an opportunity to start afresh with a blank canvas. Pick a captain to lead the team, and build the team around them with other leaders in the squad in key positions.
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That’s what I think we really should not do. This England side is actually very good, it isn’t awful. Tweaks are absolutely needed; not sweeping changes.
Otherwise we’ll be sat here in 4 years time wondering why our team isn’t experienced enough. In 4 years players can maybe get, what, 35 caps?
Hartley wasn’t banned for the WC and should have played in it. Hartley has been a brilliant player for England over the years, and at 33 is still absolutely fine for a hooker. How old is Mealamu?
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Because that’s what’s made the ABs so successful right? The way they have mass culls of players when they reach a certain age?
Of course they don’t. What they do is identify the talent and bring it though slowly so they gain experience without being thrown head-first into a sink or swim environment.
Cane, Barrett, Fekitoa, Cruden, Coles, Retallick, Kerr-Barlow, SBW, Smith and so on and so on
None have just been thrown in. The team wasn’t just jettisoned en masse after previous World Cup failures. Their replacements were decided on and then developed through bench spots and lesser games, all the while learning from the men with the experience.
There are certainly players who should not have been in the side in the first place and who should not be picked again, but this idea of throwing everyone out and starting again will lead to worse failures.
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“Because that’s what’s made the ABs so successful right? The way they have mass culls of players when they reach a certain age?”
that matters. I think Dazza makes a relevant point reI’m replying to few posts here. I don’t Abs are concerned with age – it’s ability Hartley’s reliability. He’d still be in my squad over Youngs though and LCD, because of their set piece issues, but I’d certainly be having a look at George and the Saints back up hooker, to see if they are better all-round options.
“Wood and Robshaw are good, if not very good, international flankers”
Robshaw maybe by Woods no. Again this isn’t an age thing, but I think most of us agree we need a better balance to the BR, so need to give the likes of Kvesic and Fraser a run at 7. That means Robshaw and Wood are competing for the 6 shirt against the likes of Ewers, Clifford, Burgess *ahem*, Itoje etc. Wood for me has been trading on past glories for a while and wouldn’t be anywhere near the squad, and does Robshaw have the pace for modern test rugby? Robshaw is a possibility, but is playing catch up IMO.
Elsewhere we have the likes of Simpson, Daly, Slade, Pennell really putting their hand up. I think most of us will agree that scrum half and centre positions are up for grabs, but Mike Brown has hardly had a stellar start to the season, and whilst I am not advocating a return to the chop and change mentality of yesteryear, I would like to consign “credit in the bank” to the sewer and select players who are consistently on form for their clubs.
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Benjit is spot on. Is Hartley one of the best three hookers we have? Most definitely. Is he in the top two? Almost undoubtedly along with George. Is he the best? Probably, so worst case he comes off the bench.
However, I do disagree on Wood. I thought he was actually very good in the WC. That being said, the likes of Ewers/Itoje certainly need a chance, and if Robshaw is an option at 6 then he may feel even further down the pecking order.
I wouldn’t throw Wood out; but I’d have him on the fringes whilst others are given a shot and would be perfectly happy to see him come back in at a later date if some of them don’t cut it.
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Nice looking team there Jez. I think I would start with Ford at 10 though, and bring Faz on if the game got tight. A couple of other people I’d swap and Itoje would have to be captain! Eastmond for Daly, and Goode for Watson.
Also just noticed you only have two backs on the bench? Ewers could move to 8 if needed, but understand the presence of Fraser as a second fetcher. Morgan on current form would miss out.
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Agreed Dazza, Morgan out (but included in elite squad) Watson on bench.
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Well thank God for that.But if it’s the right decision today why was it not the right decision a month ago?A whole month has been lost because of self imposed bloody dithering.His goal pre rwc was 2nd in the world position a month ago 8th.End of simple simple decision.Stu is but one problem that needs to be solved a bigger one is why ceo took a month to act.Useless bloody man
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I’ve now discovered that ceo consulted 59 people about Stu stay/go!!Fifty bloody 9!Says it all about whats wrong with rfu
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OK there’s a line between building a consensus and being a dithering fool and unfortunately he’s well over it.
If it takes 59 people to decide to get rid of a coach how many will it take to hire a new one?
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So they’ve recruited two additional Old Farts since Will Carling’s rant all those years ago.
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From Ritchie:
“No, not all the players wanted Stuart Lancaster to go” – ouch that assumes some did!
“I think I am still qualified to recruit the next coach. I am chief executive.” *sigh*
“but I will talk to a number of people within the game on the appointment.” – let’s hope its not the same clowns as last time – no PRL people please – they have a vested interest in a weak coach, and not a fricking head hunter. And can we get on with it.
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A euphemism for the players who stuck up for Lancaster perhaps? So.Wood Haskell,Farrell jnr, Farrell snr,……..oh bloody hell!
Have to say Benjit,we really do share the same slightly jaundiced way of thinking. My first thought when I read the article was “so what happens to farrell snr,does that mean he’s staying on?” All my ebullience that Mr Cautious was on his bike completely swamped by the nightmare vision of AF as coach with Wood as captain!
I think it’s time for some new blood in the squad for the 6N ,particularly in the light of Brown’s comment about lack of trust.
Ewers has to be included.Itoje,Hill,Burrell,Daly,possibly Clifford,Kvesic,Penell, Attwood and Wilson as starting T/H. Dan Cole has to prove his form is back,ditto Lawes.
I’d dearly love to look on this as the start of a bright new dawn but as we know all too well when the RFU are involved silk purses very easily become sows ears!
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I see even in his parting comments he’s talking about how bad the situation he inherited in 2011 was. The usual soundbite of “when I took over we were only 5th in the world rankings” was missing for some mysterious reason.
Bomber’s golden rules
1) To create the illusion of success you must first convince everyone the starting state was far worse that the reality
2) Repeat rule number one over and over again until everyone starts accepting it as truth
Let’s see how he feels when his successor comes in and starts pointing out what a pile of shit he’s inherited in 2015.
It’s time to start with a clean slate, the gang of 4 had their contracts renewed as a package deal, so they should be cleared out as a package deal. New head coach should pick his own team.
I don’t see any English coaches qualified to take the job, though I would love to see Rob Baxter involved as an assistant or forwards coach, he’s the only guy, I can think of, with the potential to hold the post in the future.
Anyway, good decision, fingers crossed we can entice a top class coach in. There must be plenty thinking “compared to the last guy I’m going to look like a magician” and be able to command ~£500K a year as well.
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Brilliant comments Matt.Not only spot on but made me laugh as well.A rare occurence in anything connected with rfu.Thank you!
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Just to counter some of the comments on here – whatever your thoughts of Lancaster, he still had a higher win ratio than any coach since Woodward. I am happy we are getting someone new in, and the WC was a massive misse opportunity – but he has brought through some excellent players and I think England can build on his work with a more experienced coach to move forward. Anyway. Onwards and upwards hopefully!
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Why on earth has it taken a month for this to happen? Had to go following such an humiliation on home soil. Hopefully the RFU can get a proven winner in to lead what is a highly promising group of young players for 2019.
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I think the answer to that question is that’s how long it takes to negotiate a Compromise Agreement. Having blagged a bizarrely long contract extension just before the world cup, Bomber was hardly going to resign as soon as England were knocked out and walk away with nothing. I’d be interested to know how much cash he managed to trouser on his way out. A pay-off based on four years notice, on his salary, would be a pretty decent boost to his pension pot.
I understand Messrs Rowntree, Farrell and Catt also signed contract extensions just before the world cup too. If the RFU decides they need to go and has to fulfil compromise agreements for all of them it is going to cost quite a bit of cash. For that reason, whoever agreed to those unnecessarily long extensions, (I’m not sure it that’s Rob Andrew or Ian Ritchie), needs to be questioned over that decision-making process. Not that the RFU is struggling for cash of course, particularly after the most profitable RWC to date.
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Lewsey as a backs coach might be interesting. Rowntree to go as he has had all of the SL era plus time from the previous and the result – an English pack gets humiliated in more ways than one! Ideally a foreign coach to shake things up behind the facade of the all too cosy inner workings of the RFU which sounds like it resembles the FA by the way! Gone are the days when you have to have to be John Bull (Gatland proves it) as do many others!
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La la land continues.Stu says he leaves an incredibly strong foundation and genuine rwc contenders in Japan!Stuart this is a much bigger mess than 2011.8th world ranking!Ffs!And Ritchie says Burgess affair has not reflected badly on rfu.
Once again a sympton has been treated but the cause(Rotteness of rfu structure and key players eg Ceo and Besumont)remains untreated.I remain thoroughly depressed
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Guys have some respect.
Respect the RWC – any outcome on sacking SL had to be made after the end of the RWC final which was less than 2 weeks ago
Respect SL, he is an employee of RFU & had a long contract, whatever you think of his ability he gave everything he could to the job & deserves his payoff. I am sure that were you being sacked you would want the best payoff you could secure & would not just walk away without a penny.
He knows he screwed up it is written on his face but stayed loyal to his coaching team who were part of our failure. I hope he writes a book detailing the behind the scenes but bet non disclosure was part of the deal
Keep the anger for Richie and Andrew, there will be another cycle of optimism and failure with their next appointment from what they are saying
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The Shed of Lancaster – coming to a bookshop near you shortly.
I hope he does not write such a book, I think we could all do without any mud-slinging, finger-pointing and blame-shifting.
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Bring Shaun Edwards into the mix. If anybody can sort the posh boys out Edwards can.
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Lancaster’s gone. Happy days. Ritchie’s still in situ. Unhappy days.
The latter gave Lancaster a 5 yr extn when SL had won nothing!? Now Ritchie’s limiting himself once more by stipulating that the new coach MUST have Int’al exp. Why? Best cand may NOT have this exp. 4 instance JS had none when Ireland hired him. Won 2 6N titles in 2.
New applicants must convince that they have innovative thinking in how the game needs to be played & have some sort of track record to back this. Otherwise England risk more of the same ol’ by engaging a coach with a trk recrd, but also being past his sell by.
My tip? Dave Rennie of the Chiefs. Won’t happen tho. Still too much conservatism @ the RFU.
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England could of course go for …………………..
1:Jesus of Nazareth who is said to have been one who had the ability to turn water into wine. Well the RFU need a miracle worker now don’t they.
Jesus may have raised Lazarus from the dead, appeared from a tomb after 3 days after the Romans executed him and raised a small child with the words ‘Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachthan’ but I suspect the corpse of English international rugby needs more than him at present.
2:King Midas might be an option. He could of course turn any base material into gold.
However even he might struggle to do anything with the sh+t that England put on the field at RWC 2015.
3:Alexander the Great- the man who cut the Gordian Knot, rather than untying the impossible cord, to proclaim himself ruler elect of Asia?
His career ended before his fulfilled his real promise so I suppose its a bit too much like re-appointing Stu Lungcaster.
4: Gaius Julius Caesar perhaps? The conqueror of Gaul and founder of the Roman Empire in Europe.
But he got done in by his own Senators who stabbed him in the back. Ian Richie take note.
5:What about Alfred the Great who saved Wessex from the Danes? (topical one, BBC 1 tonight).
Problem here was he failed to reconquer the Danelaw and left the Norsemen in control of over half of the country now known as England.
Oh well those are some possible suggestions.
I suppose most will go for Jake White if they had any sense.
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Looks like Jake White is going to get the job on the grounds that everyone who has a modicum of common sense is turning around and telling the RFU to do one.
Wayne Smith – Don’t want a full time role in 2016
Graham Henry – Piss off, i’m not working for the RFU
Eddie Jones – Im happy here (how big is your cheque book/I need two more zeros)
Michael Cheika – I haven’t heard anything from the RFU
Clive Woodward – I told you to bugger off 12 years ago and nothing has changed since then
Warren Gatland – I like the Welsh why would I make them hate me
Joe Schmidt – I like the Irish why would I make them hate me
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Nick Mallett is the name being strongly linked now. I certainly think it’ll be one of White, Mallett or Jones.
Personally Jones would be my first choice followed by White and then Mallett. How happy I am with either White or Mallett would largely depend on the staff they bring with them.
Would like to see an English defence coach and an English forwards coach – we breed them well! But backs and the head coach role certainly need to go abroad.
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won’t be happy until andy farrell goes. have a private nightmare that somehow he will get to stay on.
if they can’t get the coach in place we could have the 3 stooges for the 6 nations which would be an incredible waste. yet more caps for barritt, farrell a shoe-in for every match…although fortunately andy farrell can’t pick burgess at centre which I am sure he would do if he could. we need to be bringing in new players not hanging around with the old favourites..
given the extent of farrell’s influence on just about every wrong decision you would think he might have the decency to resign….
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Having watched some of Harlequins thrashing a very one-dimensional Montpellier last night, I’d rather we ruled out White!
His game plan seemed to consist of having some very large forwards win penalties. Looks like he’s not moved on from South Africa circa 2006/07
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I don’t often agree with Pablito but…
For me the one guy who is writing the most sense, and did so throughout the world cup, is Dean Ryan. I’d give him the reins myself.
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Just came on here to say that. ‘Proven international experience’ is one thing but given Montpellier’s performance (and with some pretty tidy players in there), I struggle to see how he is any more qualified than Conor O’Shea!
Really not a White fan – as plenty have said, anyone could have won the world cup with the team he had. Probably even Andy Farrell. Need someone with a little bit of intelligence and creativity to turn what I think is one of the most talented generations of English players coming through (3 x under 20 WC finals and 2 wins).
If Wayne Smith and Jones are ruling themselves out, I would like to think Dave Rennie is being considered. Alongside an England forwards coach (Borthwick or Ryan or Baxter for me) and a couple of other good coaches, he could do wonders.
Oh and Lewsey leaving the Welsh is an interesting development.
P.s. Not Mallett
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Whilst I have my doubts about White, those writing him off on the back of his last 2 results are as mistaken as those who wrote Mallet off 4 years ago based on his decision to play Bergamasco at scrum half. It basically ignores all their success by focussing on failures or aberrations that may not reflect their relative skills. For instance in this case I would excuse White given that:
1. French sides have a notoriously lax attitude to away fixtures
2. French sides have shown an utter disdain for the challenge cup (unless they get to the semis)
White’s appointment/ or whoever is appointed is only a part of the picture. The more important part IMO, and where Robinson, Ashton, Johnson and Lancaster absolutely failed is in the appointments of their support team. White was successful when he had Jones with him for the Boks and Larkham at the Brumbies, so I will hold my counsel until the whole coaching team has been announced.
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What’s the difference between the RFU and RAF?
One was famous for being a Dam Buster.
The other is infamous for being a Sam Buster.
And strangely Lancasters were involved in both!
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Oh,Enoch. You’re wasted on here. In fact I imagine you are wasted much of the time! “Good evening frenz!!!!”
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Ha ha teecee…. so funny ….
Not as wasted as England’s ever so expensive 4 yr plan to win RWC 2015 in front of 80,000 adoring fans at what Peter West used to arrogantly call ‘HQ’.
RWC 2015 clearly Carlsberg do rugby tournaments for Welsh rugby fans.
From 10 points down at several stages in the game to downing the hosts who had beaten Wales home and away in the 2 previous 6n meetings.
And then the award for crowning turd decision of the evening goes to Captain Cockup going for the corner coz ‘our pack will rumble Wales over from here’
Like f++k they will!!!
Which bit was wasted and by whom?????
The self-proclaimed champions whose coach arrogantly released a book on his methods in Aug 2015 b 4 a ball was even passed.
Utter English sneering as usual……look at us…….we’ve won the cup already don’t you know.
How we laughed at the scheduling of the final pointless England Pool Game, scheduled as a celebration of either Wales or Aus going out earlier that day and set-up as a curtain raiser for a home Qtr final against Scotland, followed by a semi v Ireland.
Well it didn’t quite turnout like that did it eh?
How the English are now bleating about the draw for the pools being based om IRB Rankings as per Dec 2012.
If we’d gone out and used that excuse we’d be accused on whinging but that is what all England fans are doing now. Ditto the Aussies if they used your current excuses.
We’ll NEVER let you forget this ‘Home’ English 2015 tournament ……ever….it was a total utter embarrassment for everyone your side of the bridge.
Just cannot wait for the back-stabbing amongst all the English players, coaches, admin staff that has not even properly begun!
England 2015 RWC souvenir jerseys 50% off from the England Rugby store the day after they lost to the Aussies by what was it…20 points and 3 tries to 1.
In the New Year they’ll all be going at a What! shop or Poundland near you.
Buy one get 3 free.
Care to refute on a factual basis anything from the above?
Thought not, keep feeling sorry for yourselves guys…its going to get a lot worse before it gets any better!
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Point 1: Twickenham is HQ, in a game created by the English. That’s no being arrogant, just accurate.
Point 2: It was a Carlsberg tournament for Wales? Only if the sum ambition of your small minded hard of thinking Welsh fan is to beat England before capitulating in two matches against quality opposition…what a singular lack of ambition. A Carlsberg tournament is winning it, not being the 5th to 8th best team there.
You utter joke.
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The joke is on the nation that published ‘House of Lancaster’ before the tournament start which showed the last 4 yrs are built on foundations of sand.
The whole pro-England media circus that led up to the ko of the cup itself, the tv adverts with O2, Jonny Jesus and Hewitt’s bastard, Lancaster’s coaching book and all that John Inverdale et al went on and on about for the 1st 17 days of the tournament and now it is all sackcloth and ashes all round.
You may well get a really nasty 6n 2016 coz it has all gone horribly horribly wrong and you are away for three games v France, Scotland and Italy. Oh and you have Wales at Twickenham….again.
50+ million people to choose from, over a dozen fully professional teams and it all screwed up in just over a fortnight from tournament ko v Fiji (despite 4 tries for a bonus point in that game!)
Make sure you get your England Rugby World F+ck Up 2015 memorabilia……… 10 items for 50p from the England Rugby Store website.
Free postage for all orders over £50 to anywhere in the World it boasts
For £50 you can now buy their entire stock of adult-sized England replica shirts, both home and change strips. Ideal for lining the wheelie bin or as rags for washing the car with.
I cannot wait to see one of your countrymen wearing a red rose rugby shirt coz it will make my day and I shall ruin his!
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Honestly Enoch, you are really a very unintelligent, nasty, bitter man are you not? The whole point of Rugby is too have respect for your opponent, to be dignified in defeat and humble in victory.
And yes England were humiliated in the RWC (and may well be so in 6Ns). But then again were Wales so great themselves.
But here’s the difference. I got no joy out of Wales being beaten by Aus and SA. But you obviously do get joy out of seeing England fail. And that’s tells me all I need to know about you as a man and a human being.
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