Still a bit unclear if I’ve fully understood yr pt/s, but but my comments to Jacob, who claimed to do so, may/may not clarify my grasp of your views on ‘the thread’?

… although NOT quite so clearly?

So there you have it, although quite so clearly. Gerry’s view that NZ players going abroad between WCs hardly seemed to me to constitute a ‘model’. Exceptions more like. Most ABs stay @ home.

Of the few you mention (Messam, Kaino, Carter, SBW – etc???) I have mostly dealt with & SBW left league for union & went back again (possibly as he was never a 1st choice AB). Now that he’s ‘back’?,who knows, he may or may not be picked.

I mentioned Oz as this new? ‘model’ seemed a better fit for them; i.e. in refining their rules to enable players to return for the WC. Although I doubt the ‘model’ is endorsed by either Oz or NZ Unions.

Gerry didn’t mention an ‘exodus’. I did, because it is going to happen, albeit NOT as any sort of ‘model’, but because of age & commercial opportunity.

Regds England players going off shore, in the end £ talks, esp in a short career. It’s likely if they’re good enough, but unlikely for more than 2 yrs at a time if they have national ambitions.

However, the more successful a national side is, players are, IMO, more likely to stay ‘loyal’. Their reps enhanced by doing so & with the advantage of making them more valuable commodities, thus enabling higher leveraging of salaries.

The Aus model is not the same as Englands and NZ’s; and therefore not comparable situations.

NZ have players (Messam, Kaino, Carter, SBW etc.) that have left between WC to make some money; then returned in time to be qualified for the WC. Gerry is clearing wondering if we will see the same in England since the models are directly comparable.

He may answer for himself, as he’s surely relating an Oz ‘model’… of their players playing abroad & returning for the WC due to a rule revision?… although it wasn’t clear or his point 1 was in jest?

I don’t understand what interpretation of his statement is though?

Liam Messam is about to do the same thing too; as did SBW.

I don’t think he is suggesting exodus; simply that we may see it happen as we have in NZ.

You’re right about TUI’s game time.

I was thinking more Armitage than than Tui as to why ‘any England player would want to move to France’.

And if Cipriani is charged he too may now well wonder why HE didn’t go ‘French’ straight after returning from abroad.

Surely this is a leap 2 far into the future?

It’s only Oz who’ve revised their rules for this WC in order to allow their overseas players to return to the fold. Presumably because they’er within their rights & they want to WIN the thing.

You appear to be lumping NZ in with Oz, as, to the best of my knowledge, only Jerome Kaino has played for an extended period of time abroad in Japan & returned to the national team; Carter’s aborted 6 month ‘sabbatical’ being the other ‘exception’.

The AB’s usually dump ‘em after their deemed sell by date, as is soon to be evidenced by the exodus from their ranks following this Cup, rather than re-sign them.

Haven’t much (ever, thus far?) demurred from what you’ve stated. However, on this occasion & in respect of your 1st sentence, surely Sonny Parker for example, didn’t give 2nd best, as I recall, when playing for Wales, whether or not he ‘felt’ that he belonged to that nation?

Whether Tui has genuine allegiance for England, only he can honestly answer, although I read previously something about his being proud etc to do so.

It seems to me that players develop a team affinity (@ club, national or other level), or @ least a loyalty to their ‘brothers’ on the field, if not necessarily ‘feeling’ like a ‘foreign national’. This may depend on how long they’ve been in a country I’d guess, although I suspect that even this may be @ different levels for individual players.

I’d also guess that Jonathan Davies (I heard that he is unfortunately injured?) for instance, ‘feels’ pretty Welsh even though he was born in Blighty.

Ideally players would or should(?) play for their country of birth, I agree, but alas, this concept went out the window with professional rugby after… c.1995?

Anyway, these are some of my thoughts.

Anything further on yours?

Regds