Let’s be honest, the Eddie Jones era hasn’t got off to the best start has it – and we’re months away from even seeing a ball kicked. Of course, very little of it is Jones’s fault but several incidents – such as the image of Jones forlornly stuck in an immigration office and a tug of war over Steve Borthwick (there was a time when that would have sounded ridiculous) – has left RFU organisational skills looking about as convincing as an Oscar Pistorious defence.
But balls to all that back-room stuff – the stuff that really grabs headlines and the interest of Jones (and the fans) is the selection of a new Elite Player Squad and, of course, its captain. In many ways, the choice of skipper is Jones’ first big call in arguably the most high-pressure job in World Rugby.
And the whisperings are that he is handing the armband to Dylan Hartley.
Way to avoid rocking the boat, Eddie.
The first thing that everyone jumps on (understandably) is the discipline issue, so let’s get that out of the way. Dylan may have received various bans totalling in excess of a year in his career, but his international on-pitch record is pretty solid for a forward – 66 caps, and just the two yellow cards. Of course, that doesn’t matter if he’s not available in the first place and spending time in the naughty corner because he’s lost his rag in a domestic game for Northampton again, which is where the vast majority of his bans have arisen, and so there’s no doubt his appointment would carry some risk on the discipline front. For all the talk of giving players a ‘clean slate’ from a playing perspective (which I am all for) I find it difficult to tally that logic for a player who has a track-record for occasionally boiling over in high-pressure situations and consistently missing games through bad on-field conduct each season.
But – and it is a very big ‘but’ – his general leadership skills are not in doubt; he leads from the front and, at his best, he is a spiky opponent who rallies his own troops whilst getting in the face of others. In many ways, handing Hartley the captaincy represents a complete reversal to Lancaster’s squeaky-clean, PR-focused era, and allows the perfect opportunity for Jones to stamp his own authority and influence on the squad before they’ve even got together. But there is a balance to be struck between leadership skills, discipline liability and Jones’ desire to make this team his own – and I’m not sure selecting Hartley as skipper before the first training session gets that balance right.
But I can see why Jones would overlook the discipline issues, even if I don’t agree that he should. What I can’t see is how Hartley is in a better position than others to be a skipper because, let’s face it, his position is a long way from secure. It would be stupid to try to argue that England did not miss him during the World Cup – particularly in the scrum, where the bind between Joe Marler and Tom Youngs was regularly attacked and exploited and, whilst both must take the blame for that, the Saints man would surely have steadied the ship had he not introduced his forehead to Jamie George’s mouth two months before the tournament started. But would he have made a difference to the outcome? Probably not.
For all the lazy arguments thrown his way, the lineout under Tom Youngs functioned at a shade below 90% (after the warm-up games, anyway), and the Leicester hooker was statistically one of the best forwards on the park over his three games, regularly appearing towards the top of the charts on carries, tackles and rucks hit – even though he only usually played an hour, tops. He was outstanding as well at Thomond Park against Munster and Hartley simply doesn’t offer his energy or work-rate. Of course, the man who took his place in the squad (ironically the man he delivered a Glaswegian kiss to) has been in stunning form for Saracens, as well. Jamie George offers more size in the scrum and runs a brilliant line-out and, although he’s not quite as mobile as Youngs, he gets around the park superbly for a big man. He’s led the Premiership Champions on several occasions as well this year, so he clearly has leadership qualities in his armoury which only lends weight to the general consensus that he’s destined for the England no.2 shirt.
The above is not to say that Youngs or George – or even the mightily impressive Exeter duo of Jack Yeandle and Luke Cowan-Dickie – are better players than Hartley. But, if we are talking clean slates and talking about who is performing right now, then these are the guys who should be fighting for the shirt. Dylan started off in reasonable form before a concussion has ruled him out for several weeks, but he has a lot of ground to make up to get to the front of the queue in my book.
There are very few players in this England squad who can command a starting spot at the moment – particularly if past achievements are to be disregarded as Jones has said. But there is a leadership group there that can develop – and Hartley can (and should) certainly be part of that. But he’ll be amongst the likes of Joe Launchbury, Mike Brown, Tom Wood, Ben Youngs and others (even Chris Robshaw) and I don’t see compelling evidence as to why he has merited the right to lead England, beyond these others, before the first team meeting has been called.
My preference would be to share the captaincy around for the first few months or so. But if not, then I have a message for Eddie Jones – assess your squad, look at their form, identify your leaders and, closer to the Six Nations, pick your outstanding candidate. If Hartley still emerges as a clear choice at the end, you’ll have no complaints from me.
By Mike Cooper (@RuckedOver)
Photo by: Patrick Khachfe / Onside Images
Can’t help but feel that this whole “Hartley is fravorite to be the next captain story” has just been cooked up by the media. all there appear to be in it is rumors and hearsay and no one seems to have actually heard EJ say he likes the idea.
Lets check the facts
Hartley stepped down as Saints captain because he felt he was unable to dedicate himself to the role fully.
The media are already queing up to nail him to the cross and that on on the back of nothing more than rumor
Under these circumstances what are the chances of him saying yes even if he is asked
Re Youngs’ line-out stats from the RWC. I’d like to see a break-down of how many of those were thrown to front jumpers.
I’d be willing to bet that it was the vast majority of throws
Hartley is a superb set-piece operator but has not in recent years, had much impact with his carrying. If he can sort that and his temperament out, then could be a good call.
(Although personally, I think George brings a combo of Hartley’s set-piece ability and Young’s round the field impact. so I’d be starting him ahead of either of them)
Who else is there for England captain? Of those you name, Brown is overly fiery (and at fullback not in an indeal position to captain), Launchbury seems too quiet to me, Tom Wood should not be first choice and I don’t think Ben Youngs has the nous (and I would be starting Simpson any way)
Itoje or Clifford perhaps in the long run, but not right now
Hi Pablito
Agree with most of what you say – but that’s what I was trying to get across. There are no stand-out candidates, and that’s why I’d share the armband round or at least assess the dynamic and form of my squad before picking a captain.
re: Youngs, I’m not sure. From recollection most were to the middle, but a higher proportion went to the front than the back. But he’s looked the better overall option than Hartley for some time. That said, even as a T Youngs fan, I’d go for George as my first choice as a good balance between the two.
Personally think it’d be a good choice. His disciplinary for England has never been a problem at all. He is experienced, respected and clearly has leadership skills. On the hooker front, he is by far and away the best set piece hooker we have. George would certainly be my bench option but I prefer a Hartley style hooker to start with.
There aren’t really many options. Launchbury I think would be a good one; in a calmer Warburton type captain style. Otherwise, options are very limited to players that are uncapped (Itoje) or not likely to start (Wood/Robshaw).
Ben Youngs might a decent short term choice, but it’d be exactly that, a short term option.
Jacob
Funnily enough, I’m with you on this one. Hartley’s had his issues, but Jones knows this & if he is to be captain, surely EJ will have spoken to Hartley about his responsibilities.
Also, Hartley had a bit of a rum deal in (unwisely?) tangling with the ego driven Barnes who could, if he’d had the maturity or affinity with rugby, simply have pinged or yellowed DL on THAT occasion.
Additionally, Hartley’s ‘head butt’ was hardly that was it? More a mutual ‘head rest’ for both players involved? Still he’ll need to learn that ‘fair play’ doesn’t always work both ways, especially in the form of punishment.
And as you state, what other options? Robshaw seems to lack tactical awareness & is unlikely to be guaranteed a place; not @ openside anyway. Maybe blind?
Easter would in theory be a contender, but will not feature, in the long term @ least.
No one else seems to put their hand up for me, even Brown, as he too can be a bit temperamental – just like you know who. Not an ideal posi either, although not the determining factor.
Form aside, I’m not as against this idea as I thought I would be. Hartley’s discipline issues have at least mostly been on the field (bar some nonsense at RWC 2011 that half the England team seemed to be guilty of), largely front-row “handbags”, and there’s been no embarrassing Henson/Quade/Beale-style media meltdowns. However, the red card in the 2013 final is a major black mark, as is the gouging (although that was a while ago now).
I’ve always seen a lot of Ronnie Regan in Hartley. Not necessarily the biggest or best hooker technically, and a bit of a risk if the ref takes against him, but (potentially) a great leader by example and capable of making a big impact on a game when it matters.
It kind-of comes down to the sports “personality”/Tyson Fury debate (if you ignore the fact Fury’s clearly an idiot). Do you want the England captain to be the best in his position, the best sportsman, or the best leader when the chips are down? Either way, it’s gonna be a big call if EJ goes down this path…
The question for me is does the captain actually need to be first choice, or could we have a team captain not guaranteed to start?
Some clubs have adopted this option and it seems to work. If a good leadership team is established within the squad, I don’t think the team captain necessarily needs to be on the field? In which case maybe Hartley may be a good option. This would also help bring some of the younger players, who have experience as a captain at club and age grade level, into the leadership group and as matchday captains?
Interesting – could certainly see this as an option, in the same way as teams like Bath and Sararcens tend to have a club captain and different on-field captains per game depending who is playing. Slightly different situation as the smaller number of international games means you don’t have to rotate to keep players fresh. Theoretically barring a loss of form or injury you would start pretty much the same players ever game?
However Hartley would benefit from this, not least as he is a front row player, he is likely to go off at the 50/60 minute mark? We are likely to need at least one other captain on the field because of this… Or if he is binned…
Exactly my thinking. I think Borthwick is a prime example. All the players he played with said he was an excellent captain, with good clear communication, but a lot of people would argue that there were better locks available to play for England at the time.
IIRC Hartley has 3 yellows at international level – 1 vs Georgia and 2 vs South Africa.
Haskell has had 4 but nobody mentions that.
Having a captain who’s not worth his starting place is always a disaster – think Phil deGlanville excluding Jeremy Gusset from the England side or Ciaran Fitzgerald captaining the Lions and Peter Wheeler missing out.
Tom Youngs stats are meaningless – if he was a back rower they’d be impressive – he can’t scrummage and he can’t throw well under pressure. That puts your pack on the back foot right away. Everyone harps on about how good he is in the loose but that’s nonsense – he should be doing the tight stuff and not poncing about in midfield as if he’s a converted sentre…..
Buzz – I usually hate having to do the Tom Youngs defence thing but unfortunately your claims don’t add up. He has shown time and again that, with a quality loosehead, he can scrummage just fine. He shows it with Leicester when paired with Ayerza or even Mulipola, he showed it in Australia for the Lions when next to Corbisiero. He isn’t as good as Hartley in the scrum, or George for that matter, but to imply that a hooker should have to make up for the inadequacies of the loosehead is to go a bit far IMO. Also worth noting that his line-out stats at Leicester have been right up there over the last two years and (sigh) yes, he does throw to the back. He’s not as good for England though and I don’t know why. Maybe the lineout calls aren’t good enough. Borthwick would sort that.
I disagree with you here. Youngs may be fine in the scrum at club level but at international level where the skill levels are generally that much higher, his weaknesses in the scrum are exposed.
Using the awful Aussie scrum that the Lions faced as an example doesn’t really prove any point. Plus in the last game which was when the Aussie scrum really got hammered, Hibbard started and Youngs came on at about the 50th minute.
It seems quite clear to me that the England scrum was weakened when Hartley was not available and was replaced by Youngs.
Still, all this discussion of Youngs is moot. Jones has said he wants his hookers to hook and Youngs cannot do that, so he is likely to be only an option for the bench
I very much agree with your last point. It seemed to me that England went into the world cup taking their scrum and forward power for granted. When it transpired they couldn’t push anyone backward and were under pressure themselves, be it from a poor scrummaging hooker, weak loosehead, light locks or whatever, they couldn’t go to the obvious plan B of get the ball in and get it out, because they didn’t have a hooker who could hook.
Buzz
Well hookers, along with the other 15 on the field, must be more multi-tasking these days, so to criticise Youngs for ‘poncing about in midfield’, is surely partly missing the point.
I don’t think NZ, for instance, quite regard Dane Coles as a ponce with his tries from midfield.
However, I agree that a hooker also ought to scrummage & (probably; some teams simply all push only) hook properly.
I think this strongly signifies the way Jones wants his England team to be .. spiky, confrontational, very strong set piece pack. Possibly the ‘traditional’ England strengths, especially as seen by an Australian. I don’t think there are many other candidates about, although I would like to see George be given some significant game time at hooker.
Linked to this is – apparently Mitch Lees the Exeter lock has been talked about (as I’m sure many players at all the clubs have) but he’s a massive guy, central to the Chiefs tight play at the moment.
A lot of good debate on here but perhaps people are missing the point I was trying to get across. I don’t blame you for getting bored halfway down. My main gripe is not about his discipline – you’ll see that I accept that it’s a balancing act between getting a spikey character and running the risk of picking a permanent absentee – but the fact that, if everyone is getting a clean slate, then positions within the squad should be earned on merit. On form. On form, he is not the best hooker – taking everything into account, including the set piece – by a distance. George, Youngs and Yeandle (in that order, for me) are ahead of him in the pecking order. And I don’t see why, with the term ‘clean slate’ being banded about – he should get a guaranteed starting spot and the honour of captaining England without having to prove his worth like everyone else.
Whilst I agree with the whole “clean slate” concept, I don’t think you can take it that literally.
Yes people get a clean slate, but you can’t completely ignore things we already know. Hartley has proven 60 times that he a top class test match hooker. If, for example, Tuilagi returned to play in January, I am sure that he’ll play a part in the 6 nations if he even showed a glimmer of form.
A clean slate is something that Jones will use to his advantage. I.e. not picking Robshaw is skipper isn’t demoting him, they all started at nothing and he wasn’t picked for the job this time. He won’t stick by it in literal terms and hamstring himself needlessly.
Mitch Lees is an Aussie.While I don’t doubt it doesn’t bother some,I’m quite sure we can find someone home grown.Mind you,he is a lump..
Sounds like a solid idea and should make him a better player.
‘The Pigface’ as England captain. What a prospect!!
Clearly a man that all England players and in fact the entire English nation can look up to and expect to set an example for all the team to follow and supporters to cheer.
Biting (6 nations, 8 week ban),
Gouging (2 players in the same match 26 week ban) ,
Head Butting,(4 week ban)
Verbally abusing the ref (11 week ban)
Punching (2 week ban)
Elbowing (3 week ban)
Over 1 year missed from violent/unaccpetable conduct and some of those bans clearly failed to take account of his appalling record beforehand. Losing his place in the Lions Tour 2013 and also for RWC 2015 (probably a good thing for the RWC though..emerges unscathed from that rubbish)
Had he done these things pre-1995 even the RFU would have had to issue a life ban that lasted longer than their usual one game.
If this comes to pass it shows what a total joke the whole England Rugby set-up has become.
Instead of make them Pygmies it is now make them Piggies.
But apart from all that Enoch?
And I have to disagree with the ref abuse charge! As it was Barnes who was ‘abused’, surely Hartley ought to have got a gong in the Honours list?
He has captained once before I see. Is he the first non-English England rugby union captain?
Brad Barritt is currently doing a great job of captaining Saracens while Hargreaves is injured!!!! Lol!!
Don’t even joke about it Dazza
Wonder what the odds are? Might be worth a few quid!!
Shalk Burger has been banned for gouging and abusing a touch judge, and has received 6 international yellow cards, yet no one batted an eyelid when he was made captain of SA.
Hartley is experienced, guaranteed to start, has captaining experience – good choice, at least for now.
I also think if someone fishooks you in the mouth they deserve everything they get.
Punching, elbowing and headbutting happen all the time. Gouging is unacceptable but it was a long time ago so. The abuse of the ref was very bad though.
I don’t think Hartley is guaranteed to start. He is injured at the moment, and hasn’t shown much form when he has been fit this season.
Robbo
Burger should have been sent off v Lions in 2009 for gouging Luke Fitzgerald but the touch judge just bottled it. My mates and I watched the game on tv and were absolutely appalled that he got away with it. Meanwhile in the 3rd test SA players carried out a series of ‘assaults’ on Lions players and were just allowed to carry on. Picking up Martin Williams and just throwing him to the floor was one such example.
Meanwhile the ref and touch judge both bottled it when 2 of the ABs took out O’Driscoll right at the start of the game in 2005. BoD was lucky not to break his neck and neither of the 2 ABs received any sanction afterwards.
With SH international sides I have seen far far too many refs let them get away with murder on the field. In BoD’s case he could have been permanently paralysed or even killed as a result of a broken neck when 2 guys picked him up and dumped him on his head.
As far as England are concerned, I think Pigface would be a real liability. Refs may well ‘target him for penalties as a ‘known offender’ in the past.’
Prophet Enoch
Foul play cannot be condoned. However, punishment ought to fit the offence.
Abuse, in my book, doesn’t equate to say, kicking a player in the head. If, in Hartley’s case, Barnes had taken a different action, like issuing a yellow or penalty, options open to him, then it wouldn’t have led to the former’s missing a Lion’s tour.
In respect of ‘SH international sides… get(ting) away with murder…’, you only quote the BOD incident. I dare say that if you wanted to look for the same in the NH, you’d likely find it.
In the BoD case, the 2 involved were Mealamu & Umaga. I’d venture in respect of that incident that the ABs were likely intent on making an impression on O’Driscoll, for sure, but as a deliberate attempt to maim? I doubt it. The 2 had no previous (or since as far as I know). And there was no need. The Lions were hammered in that series.
And can you recall any other concerning these 2? Also, ‘In a test match against Wales on 21 June 2003, Welsh captain Colin Charvis was knocked out in a tackle from All Blacks forward Jerry Collins. Umaga stopped playing despite his team being in an attacking position; to check that Charvis had not swallowed his mouth guard’.
And both WERE exonerated by a Saffa!
Having stated all that, I realise that it was all the same in the end to BOD. Whether on purpose or not, it could have ended worse than it did. Some punishment could have been merited, but for me intent does still have a bearing & ought to be taken into consideration.. which is my pt..