38 thoughts on “Rate the match: England vs New Zealand November 2014”

  1. Not the greatest game from an England perspective, thought it was quite obvious this was the first game for a while and new personnel were in.

    May was pretty good,try showed what he can do, Roko solid but didnt get much chance to perform. Thought Eastmond had a good game but needs more time to gel, a few good passes were not run onto, but thought Farrell was so deep we lost meters and momentum constantly.

    All in all think we could have won this but for our own errors/poor kicking and will be better next week.

    1. Owens was awful, the point of having a video ref is to use him, otherwise……..*x**…..pretty lacklustre in the second…have to agree that Farrell was dull, dull, dull…..remember Ashton and Cipriani? Be nice to have some of that vision and optimism back again…..still hopeful for the WC tho, can’t have the lothesome self congratulating NZ bores actually achieving again can we!

      1. A B’s are world class man ! take a look at their stats all class and skill and always manage to come back when down, gave their all to come back to win they give it their all.
        they never, give up England to me looked good in the first half full credit to them there, the second half the A B’s had most of the possession, but as they say the world cup is many months away anything can happen between now and than with injuries…….

  2. Agree on Farrell being too deep. I think Jonny summed it up on sky sports. New Zealand just keep going until someone says I can’t make that tackle and then capitalise . We seemed incapable of offering a consistent attacking threat . You beat the ABs by being ” at them ” for 80 mins. You cannot drop off your game until the final whistle. Unless we develope that Steal the result will be the same every time . If you keep doing what you are doing, you will keep getting what you are getting.

  3. The problem is – largely – Farrell. He just does nothing to bring his outside backs into the game. And his kicking from hand was very, very poor

  4. Ben Youngs was kind of terrible again. I must of saw a pass which bounced of the ground again, and that weird pass at the end which i think was for Mullan but ended up in Robshaws hands.

    Eastmond was not bad, but to bring the best out of him would have to be Ford.

    1. Partisan. England had fallen away long before Youngs made it onto the field. I certainly didn’t see a significant drop in quality when Care went off.

      They just didn’t look interested enough. To beat the All Blacks you need to keep the intensity up for the full 80 minutes, England were nowhere near that level today.

  5. My god that second half was terrible. We keep being told that England need to play put of their skins to beat the ABs. However had we not played cr@p we would have won! Farrell was so far off the pace it was unreal yet SL still refused to bring him off. Another lousy piece of judgement. Brown and Care brought their poor Quins form with them sadly, Brown particularly. He HAS to be dropped. That 4 matches where he has potentially cost us tries.

    1. I disagree that Brown should be dropped. FB is one of very few positions in the back division where we have consistency in selection, the 11,12,13 & 14 shirts being entirely up for grabs

      2. I’m pretty sure the 13 shirt isn’t up for grabs, at least not when Manu is fit.
        I haven’t seen the match yet, so I’m only going on highlights and the occasional peak at live commentary whilst at work, but in those I didn’t see or hear any mention of Rokoduguni. If Barritt also had a quiet game; would it be worth dropping him, moving Roko to 13, where he has played before, and bringing in Yarde at 14, who was our clear cut best attacking option whilst touring NZ? Roko is a similar player to the likes of Goneva and Ranger and partnered with team mate Eastmond (who has to be the 12 that we stick with now) could make a formidable pair.

      3. Brown was terrible and has been since the summer. Selecting someone just to be consistent is madness. With that logic we should ve retained 12t and Ashton!

  6. There was just such a drop in intensity, after half time. At one point, I found myself, as a spectator, actually losing interest in the match, as if the apparent lethargy of the players were contagious.
    Now, before I’m attacked, yes, NZ were/are the better team, and there’s little doubt that the scoreline flattered us a little, but the contrast in how England approached the second half, as opposed to the first, was almost tangible, and it did play a factor in how the game drifted into the AllBlacks’ hands.

    PS: The NZ backrow were amazing!

  7. The score line flattered us.NZ were worth at least a 10/12 pt margin.NZ were comfortable throughout.They just decided to up their game at halftime. To lose 5 times in 12 months and then claim the gap is closing as SL says is unrealistic.To give us any real rwc hope winning the next 3 is essential

  8. Next week-Haskell for Wood-adds bulk against the giant Boks. Nowell for Roko-harsh but I believe Nowell comes off his wing a little more-with Barritt at 13 I’m not convinced the ball will reach the wings enough, if ever.

      1. I’m a big fan of Nowell, but, just based on Premiership matches, Roko has to be included because he’s a fu*#ing superstar! I mean, he has everything: speed, agility, hands, power, intelligence, kicki…okay, maybe not everything, but he is, without a doubt, the best winger in England, and he needs more time to prove that. I don’t think that one match, against the AllBlacks, in his FIRST test, with extremely limited opportunities is very fair.
        Also, I don’t quite buy the idea (although I’m clearly in the minority) that Barrett can’t move the ball out wide. It’s not his greatest strength, but he can do it just fine. That being said, perhaps there are players available who can do it a little better: Jonathan Joseph?

        I do agree with Haskell for Wood, though.

  10. Tight on the scoreboard (like the 2nd test in NZ), but the game was again effectively over after Ritchie (‘past it’) MC scored for the ‘wobbley’ ABs. It’s these sort of ‘comments’ that leave some with egg on faces… & IMO, a lack of SH respect for same. Better to talk after a win than give it large before a game methinks. In the end tho, SL’s side have lost 5 in a row v NZ & nxt up is SA who, like England, must win. Both for the sake of credibilty. Hard road looms for SL & England if they blow out. Similar for SA after their much vaunted win v The ABs. Agree regds Farrell, whom I wouldn’t have within a 100 of an England team for already stated reasons, although, as someone else here prev said, he plays the way he plays & Lancaster PICKS him! England generally compete up front, but they need more skill, acceration & speed (of thought & deed) @ back… like Tom May when he skinned Dagg. Not so much bashing of him now eh? Gd on him.

  11. Benjit ‘…had we not played cr@p we would have won!’. Priceless! simon scantlebury Mainly agree, but if I say it, I’ve got a chip (albeit a mico 1, surely). EddieStephens NZ upped THEIR intensity… for the whole of the 2nd.

    1. Don you beat us by 3 points and we were AWFUL. I wouldn’t be too self congratulatory. NZ seem to be on a downward trajectory to me. Still at least you are starting from a high position. England are stagnant from a fairly average position.

  12. More disappointed by the performance than the result, individual bright points:
    – Eastmond, OK we didn’t see a lot of what he can do in attack, but no one can say he’s too small and can’t tackle the big guys.
    – Attwood, just the man we needed to go toe-to-toe with Retallick.
    – May, I thought not dotting down in the right corner against Ireland in the 6N was going to be the defining split second of his international career, as he looked less confident and more desperate after that. Hopefully he can kick on now, not many around in world rugby who can run like that.
    – Kruis – good debut

    The 2 main concerns for me:
    – Too many of the ‘regulars’ that I expected to be owning the shirt for the next year looked off the pace. Wood, Farrell, Care, Brown all pretty poor. OK I get the ‘two kickers’ idea in wet conditions but when Farrell hasn’t been kicking out of hand well and has offered nothing in attack why not roll the dice and have the club partnership of Ford and Eastmond see what they can do for 20 mins?
    – The ‘we haven’t been together long’ excuse (did he watch the Baa Baas the previous week?) doesn’t cut it. For large periods of the game I had no idea what we were trying to do. Would like to know Mike Ford’s views after his big “don’t try and change Roko” speech, to then watch a guy, very good at following orders, stay tethered to his touchline for 62 mins.

    I’d go same again for next week, with exception of Haskell for Wood to bring a bit more physicality (hopefully Lawes is OK to play) then look at a few more changes for Samoa (unless we are much improved). Hoping to see a big response…..

    1. Farrel was just MIA for most of the second half, he should have been there orchestrating Englands exit from the own half, shouting at Care to give him the ball so he can boot the thing down and off the field. Instead we just had some average/bad box kicking from Care for 30 minutes, Its actually ridiculous that you put that much pressure on your scrum half, especially when you know its one of his weaknesses. At least when Ford came on he started to manage the game properly.

      I thought Brown was OK, he made quite a few half-breaks and was his solid self under the high ball. I mean if he had caught Eastmonds pass and scored we would be saying he had an epic game.

      Roko was bad, I mean he just didn’t do anything, Yarde at least would make sure he gets into the game.

      England also need to look how they warm up, it looked like the went into the ‘red’ for the first 20 and suffered for it for the rest of the game.

  13. Whilst SL has done a lot of good, both he and his team lack a killer instinct. Can’t see us winning the 6n or world cup but we’ll probably do well enough in both that people will give SL the benefit of the doubt and say “but we’ll be great in 2019”!

    A (well) beaten SA team next week? Oh joy. Can see us on the wrong side of pay back for that one. SL needs a bit more honesty and less optimism. That 2nd half is as poor as I’ve seen this side bar MS in 2012. SL should be giving his half backs hell for that performance.

    1. Johnno went after failing to make a semi (without home advantage and without a full 4 year cycle), if we don’t make the semis then I’d want some changes.

      SL is learning on the job and we don’t yet know how far he can take this team. Experienced top coaches with real rugby intellect (e.g. Schmidt) have got far more impressive results in less time. SL has generally come up with the answers, especially when the pressure has been on, just takes longer because he’s not been round the block.

      He had resolved all the off field issues by Feb 2012 in Murryfield, shame it needed doing, but it doesn’t make you the saviour of English rugby. We don’t need to hear anymore about what state we were in post 2011, it’s too far back to be currently relevant.

      1. Sorry to be picky, but Johno’s Eng went out in the quarters. However SL doesn’t seem to judged on results, happy clappy, hopey, changey seems to be enough.

        1. “happy clappy, hopey, changey” well said… Getting bored of the management accountant speak that comes out of the England camp. Another game that apparently was thrown away, etc. I disagree with that assessment but to take it as truth for one second – how many chances will SL be given to stop creating teams that throw it away? As many as Gats?

  14. Conor Joe Rokococo was contained, but too early to drop him after 1, afterall the AB wings didn’t score a million either. Personally I’d for, guess? Varndell, but he’s gotta get plenty quick ball in SPACE! England should also have gone for Cipriani as there’s no creation from the kicking (poorly) horse Farrell (son of Rob Andrew?), but it’s not gonna happen & it’s almost too late now anyway… unless, Heaven forbid, Farrell breaks a metawotsit? Unfortunate for England in midfield, as Barritt’s not the answer. Eastmond? Too soon (& not a lotta time to find out) to know if he could partner… the guy who jumped into the harbour? Regds Haskell. I’d put him @ 7 & shunt Robshaw to 6. Someone said the latter’s too small for blind. I dunno. Maybe. Don’t have his ht, wt stats, but his is Captn, so bit late to change him now too. Forgot. Back to Noel. Good man for the team @ Xmas? seriously, didn’t think he did much wrong & he seems to have no fear, but don’t know enough (not seen much of him) about him to offer further comment. As an aside, which I’ve prev mentioned, the 2 most consistent, SCORING wings in the Prem are Stretts & Slashdown!

  15. I am concerned for England. I think we might be at a cross roads, previously backed Farrell and Lancaster, but i don’t know if the former is the right answer. We lost because our big game players, bar Robshaw who I thought played really well, didn’t turn up. I don’t think we should drop Brown, but its interesting woodward said before the game he looks like he needs a break. We keep bringing in uncapped players, playing them and then either through injury or lack of form ditching them. Do wee need more consistency or is Lancaster right in what he’s doing? i.e. developing young players. If you drop Farrell thats a large spine of the team gone, and with it 26 caps, bring in Fordwith 5/6 caps? Its a risk, again, what if it doenst work out against SA? drop him or back him? I don’t envy Lancaster at all. I can’t see this team or management being ready for the world cup, the only way wel get the 600 cap mark is by playing the same players game in game out to 2016!

    We do lack a cutting edge, i don’t think our back line scares anyone, x-factor players are few and far between. Sigh. Someone give me some positives…

  16. England are not far, yet a great distance away.

    The nuts and bolts are there,

    The pack (80% ready)
    positives
    Good set plays, good breakdowns, good defense (mostly), strength in depth (think of the guys who are out.
    Negatives
    Billy needs help making the hard yards, when fit I think Tom Youngs has to play (not because he is better but he carries more ball) Wood and Robshaw are excellent at the breakdown but they need to bust that gainline more often.

    The Backs (50%)
    The back three
    Nobody knows who is playing, May is getting there, Brown had an off day but is good player. They are not the worst.
    The middfield
    I think the centres get unqualified stick for Farrell’s inability to stand flat of attack the gainline. His ineptitude puts huge pressure on the inside center to make it happen. One of the reasons Eastmond looks good for Bath is that Ford attracts the attention of the defense and keeps them honest. However when Manu plays Eastmond will have more space as he will attract more attention from the defense. Playing between Farrell and Barritt is tough offensively.

    Halfbacks
    We saw a masterful display by the SH flys this weekend (I didn’t watch the SA Ireland match) making good decisions at the right time. Farrell and Care could not change the game when it started raining Wales could not kick for the corner towards the end. Where are the generals at 10. I have said it before.

    WE WILL NOT WIN THE WORLD CUP WITH FARRELL AT 10

    we might not win it with Cipp at 10, but there is a might.

    Never gonna happen, SL would have to admit he has been wrong up till now, he will sell himself some nonsense about the team atmosphere and group cohesion, like having talented player in the lineup would upset the other players.

    1 year later,

    When the pressure is on in the semis, Farrell and that team cohesion will sit deeper and deeper, we will lose the game and we will have come so so so so close. SL will say it is gutting but we will be stronger for it and we will come stronger next time. Sounds familiar?

  17. Can’t quite believe that there are calls above for Brown to be dropped. Talk about knee-jerk reaction

    Yes he dropped a pass that was likely to result a try and whilst it wasn’t delivered directly into his arms, it still should have been taken. Other than that his only mistake was a sliced kick.

    However, he also safely took a number of high balls and made more meters and beat more defenders than anyone other than May or Attwood (!)

    It wasn’t his best game, but it wasn’t appalling either.

    Furthermore, there’s no one else holding their hand up. Foden has made some game-changing errors for Northampton recently and Watson hasn’t set the world alight at Bath (though I think he might well have the talent to be a force in the future)

    1. Pablito he has had 4 really poor games in a row for England and his club form is not great. Hardly “knee jerk”. ” The butchered try in the first half, and the brainless penatly in the second, when we finally had the ABs on the backfoot arguably cost us that game. Fortunately Farrel’s missed drop goal and missed penalty fo the sin bin were equally as costly. But we know Farrell wont be dropped, can we afford to have both of them underperforming?

  18. It seems to be clear that Test Match rugby is about the third quarter – you have to hit the ground running out of the tunnel – and the last 10 – endurance. The southern hemisphere teams generally seem to have it whereas we don’t.
    IMO England didn’t play badly but they just didn’t play well enough – possibly because they were short of test match play whereas NZ were not. Tactically they looked a bit naïve particularly with the abundant kick/chase a lot of which was poor – why give the ball to the New Zealand back row when you know how good they can be? England’s back row are not in the same class – they don’t have the same quick hands and same flair. That’s probably a reflection of English club rugby where the emphasis is all on forward play.
    The whole team lost the match, not just one or two individual players.

  19. Ronnie
    So is Lancaster the soultion or the problem then, esp with that 6 yr extension & a WC less than 1 yr away? As an NZer, when I’ve opined some of yr thoughts, I get castigated for being anything to a ‘keyboard warrior’, to a ‘troll’ (yikes!) to having a chip (not micro apparantly) etc, but I (we?) see things differently from many here. The things you say regds SL have surely been apparent from near the start (e.g. sticking to Farrell, chucking out the ‘old’ for the sake of the new – does he remember Nick Easter… or NZ’s Brad Thorn?). He’s the guy who sets the tone (style of game, skills required, tactics, strat) & picks players to fit his ‘vision’. So, the buck stops with him! Apart from having a fundamental game pivot, likely fly1/2, or an esp skilled player such as Brown (ok, so he’s been off the boil a bit latterly), blaming/shuffling players is like shooting the messenger/s. As someone said in ‘The Godfather’, ‘The fish rots from the head down’. So is SL a bit of sardine do you think?.

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